Club Fitting Series With Doc Griffin: Lie Angle/M.O.I.

Yes on the Haney. Looks like the lady has the best swing and looks the best too!
;) The flat rotary swing he teaches makes my back hurt though.

Steve & T, best method I use is cleaning the bottoms of cups with a scotch pad, really
makes you work hard in the hinge area, LOL.

As a matter of fact, I do have thoughts on Forged vs. Cavity.  See next week's video.  I do wonder though why you would need to be adjusting lie angle back and forth?

Charlie,

When did the USGA get into certifying fitters? This is the first that I've heard of it.

Cool Robert. I know they'll be some who find it facsinating and others who don't. it is actually a very interesting subject to me and as you say is the reason fot many of us that we have "favorite clubs" and ones we can never hit where we aim. Of course there are other factors including swing path and angles we add on our own that can cause errany shots, but lie and loft moght be he easiest to fix and the least expensive while being the most impportant according to some. Being that many of the Surge Nation cannot afford to get fitted clubs (yet...... I'm an optimist)  they in most cases could and should afford checking their lies and lofts. The same machine measures and can adjust both. I'll shoot you a text now on two places that might do a decent job on bothe for us.
BTW, I have one of the coolest books ever writen by onr of the foremost fitter designers alive.
'Golf Club Fitting and Performance'

http://ralphmaltby.com/349

More info than anyone could ever need but writen in very understandable language.
It's a golf club encyclopedia more or less.
Love it. 750 pages with tons of illustrations and articals on everything about golf clubs.
Just a a neat book. not cheap but worth ever dime.

Actually, to MOI the set you are pretty close.  The sw difference would be 1/2 sw instead of 1 full sw.  You made the shaft tips softer by adding weight which could cause toe droop which could cause hits toward the toe.  This has happened but is extreme.  Have the lie angles checked.  You can do it yourself by putting tape on the bottom and hitting off a piece of plastic or thin wood.  To get a better idea, try addressing the ball well towards the hosel and see if this makes any difference.  Another thing that can cause toe hits other than having the ball addressed more towards the toe is setting up with a bit of an arm reach.  When you swing, the arms will come back in towards the body and make  you hit on the toe.

Thank you to Don, Doc & the other contributors to the Daily Tip Videos.  I have been working on the "PPGS" for about a year now and I'm starting to develop confidence that I can actually "Play Golf" now... All of that Old Rotational Swing Instruction that I tried to do over the years had me so messed up I was ready to just HANG IT UP & GO FISHING!  This year's goal is continue working on the Swing Improvements & start working on the Short Game with the Kenny Knox videos - Great Addition to the available Training Library.  Putting Secrets with E. Harvey Ward put some SMOKE into my Putter last year too!
I have a question on Doc Griffin's "Shaft Length" Video from his Club Fitting Series on the Daily Videos.  The Video on "Shaft Length" identified that Club Length is "From the Left Wrist to the Floor" - I'm "right at" 32 inches, does that translate to a "Standard Club Shaft Length"?

Doc

Great job, as usual. This is all wonderful information to have.  The series is really helping me when I am working at the golf shop.  I tell people all the time to get a real fitting before they just buy sticks off the rack.  It has probably cost me a couple of sales, but it is worth it when people come back in and thank me for helping them.

Can you guys turn the lights down so I can't see you so well?  I can only take so much.

Dick

Great video.
Not to beat this with a dead horse but it looks like you and Dj have your shoe laces covered with your knees if so would that be a good check point in your opinion? Another words if you look down at address can you see your shoe laces are they covered by your knees ?

Add
With shorts on we would have about the same knee flex. I tend to check my knee flex before I PLHR and go to wide knees.

Doc,

Thanks for the reply and looking forward to next weeks video.  
As for the back and forth, my set was a basic set that was cast and I did notice that the toe end of the club was getting more rubbing.  A friend recommended bending toe up and stated if I did not like it, you could go back to the original.  However, adjusting Cast heads can cause cracking,,, i.e. cold working a soda can.  So he only buys Forged heads.

CJ

They'll continue to replay it. Just check the GC tv times at their web site.

Steve

(Add: Hey Roger. Where are ya'll getting that there should be 30* knee flex?

Nobody I have ever seen has more than 15 to 18 degrees off of a vertical line. 30 degrees would almost be squatting down.)

I agree and misunderstood something some were.Anyway I tried more knee flex not quite that much and did not seem to help standing taller less spine tilt gets the ankles correct and I have better balance.

Now I have to resist trying to go to parallel at the top of the BUS with the higher hands and taller posture it gets the hands closer to my body and helps with that but I still will go to far trying to go at 90%. And get the left shoulder to go down and under the chin instead of around flat under the chin witch IMO is why I drag the club inside to quickly.

Adams does some weird things with lie angles. They range from 3/4* to 1*, to .5* to .25*. They also do some strange things with length. The best thing to do is go to their web site and get the specs and then have your clubs compared to it.

Dave,

I have reconsidered my over the top response to you and found it to be unpleasant even to me. You have my apology for too quick of a shoot from the hip response, which seems to have shot myself in the foot. Nuff said.

The problem is that there really isn't a "Standard Club Shaft Length" so much. Different OEM manufacturers have their own specs, but individual sets may vary from those. Remember that off-the-rack clubs are factory assembled, so you have a bunch of people on an assembly line whose entire training consists of which bin to grab a shaft from and which bin to grab a head from. Among the shafts in the "Regular" flex bin, there could be a variation from the stiff end of Senior flex to the soft end of Stiff flex. No attempt is made to even align the spines, much less the more accurate method of floing the shaft to minimize off-plane vibration. And that's just a small part of what could be non-optimal in an off-the-rack set. Even sets that claim to be swing weight matched may vary significantly from club to club. 

 Doc

Just pick it up at the start of the 2nd verse and jump right in.

Dick

Mike you obviously have the talent,hence in your case the lie angle issue becomes even important for you to fix for consistent feed back.

Again., there is no standard from one company to the next and we can choose too.

Click this link:
http://swingsurgeon.com/Instru...

And then click the area where you live and work down to see if there are any fitters in your area. 

If not, you can use Doc Griffin's long distance fitting program by clicking on his name at the top of any of his responses here and on his web site clicking "Long Distance Fitting" to get the forms and information necessary.

I guess I'm one of the ones who is more secure using data from rather than just feel. One day, on nice grass onto a flat green, from just off the green with no one behind me, I practiced chipping with my 7, 8, 9, PW, GW, SW, and LW, all with hands back 90 degrees (9 o'clock). It was amazing how the distances all varied by five yards. This has calmed my mind down on chips ever since. I can proportion each club into thirds, and I can use each data point as a starting point to make approximations for the slope of the green and the condition of the grass. If nothing else, it has calmed my mind down and increased my consistency. Oh, another benefit--I haven't chipped as short as I used to when I was going more guessing. Anyway, works for me.

I actually have used the marker-line-on-the-ball method to check some of them, and the lies are fine on those ones, but I need to go through the whole set. Really, I need new clubs though, as these were built to the specs of 18 year-old me.

Does tending to hit the ball toward the toe mean the lie angle is too flat or too steep?

The standard length for a men's PW is 35.75* Just an FYI

I agree. People keep asking me why I keep wanting to change my swing because it repeats over and over my response is yes it does but that does not make it right to many moving parts and to much timing involved but I am closer to what I want 3/4 back swing just need to ingrain it. But I may be at a point of how much better can I get. My goal last year was to shoot in the 70's more often than not and stay there but is it a reality for a weekend warrior to shoot in the 60's constantly. I am going to try and get into the 60's a few times before the end but we will see.

Point being my swing looks horrible but I am shooting in the 70's. I may be my own worst critic.      

 Mike,

Surge is the one who said 30* at the ankles, 30* at the knees, and 30* at the waist. The important part of that is the point of reference for each angle. Each one is measured 30* from a vertical line, starting from the ankle. If you flex your knees so that the hip joint stays over the ankles and the lower leg is 30* from vertical (out toward the toes), the upper leg will be 30* from vertical in the opposite direction. Bending 30* forward from the waist then allows your arms to hand vertically over the toe line. 30* is a relatively small amount. Look at Surge's down-the-line views to see what 30* looks like. He gets really close. I find that when I flex more than 30*, I revert to a rotational swing. If I stay really close to 30*, I am more upright and can swing vertically.

I'm going dark and mask next week.

Thanks for your feedback.  I will run through the options you suggested (set up) before I look at anything else.

Yep, she looks like the best at the beginning. I'm with you on the rotary. Kind of what I was thinking when he said Sugar Ray was too vertical and no hand/wrist breaking/action.

Steve,

I'm sure you can catch the 1st episode in one of the many replays.

PMG

I certainly agree with you on presentation but I am not a professional videotographer nor ever professed to be.  I am also not trying to train anyone yet just convey information.  It does seem to me that you must have gotten a good bit of the information even though my presentation was less than professional.

I am human and could very well have made a mistake.  Please point out precisely what the contradiction was regarding lie angle.  Thanks.

Getting the feel of the difference between swing weighted or MOI matched was never a point that I brought up.  I merely stated that I build to MOI.  Finding the correct MOI is important but if you build to swing weight then finding the correct swing weight for the player is as important.  Whether you choose to then build to MOI or swing weight is personal preference.  I prefer to do it MOI.  As to gram weight and length, there are certainly things you can do to make MOI matching easier.  The difference in gram weight is pie in the sky as  you probably know that most manufacturers don't have that much control over weight from one club to the next.  3/8" differential is certainly preferable and make MOI matching easier.  However, it doesn't guarantee the match as the discrepancies in head weight can throw it off.  So, having an MOI machine insures that it can be done.  Simple fact is that MOI matching was first (be around since the 1920's so it's nothing new) and swing weighting came as a derivative of MOI matching.  Swing weighting was quicker and less expensive 90 some odd years ago.  The current MOI machine has made it quite simple, quick, and relatively inexpensive.

As for your issue with whether or not only more advanced club fitter is able to deliver MOI services, the issue would not be with me.  I don't write the intro below the video.  However, I don't know of many fitters that are not a bit more advanced than the average that do MOI matching.  But, certainly, you don't have to be advanced fitter to do it but I also don't think you'll find many advanced ones that don't.

In no way is my response to intended to be defensive but rather informative as is the intent of my videos.

Oh, I have yet to crack a cast head.  There are cast heads out there that are actually easier to bend than some forged heads.  Is your friend in the club business?  I am asking because when bending a club you are moving the hosel, not the toe.

I do have one quick question. You didn't demonstrate it in operation, but what's the Moment of Inertia for the bobble head Doc's head?

Not only are we treated to vitriol, but also veiled threats. Doc teaches good sound expert clubmaking and fitting principles, as opposed to what you call "the PPGS golf fitting system".  My guess is Doc would be the first to tell us that.  I doubt that Don or Doc have considered making PPGS organization the purveyors of a golf religion, and so I am certain they are not averse to considering other ideas. I doubt seriously that they would ban me from the site because they feel I am preaching heresy or attempting to undermine their tenets. I am not.
I am curious, however, how you feel you have the authority to speak for the other members, and more especially, why you apparently are so threatened by something as inncuous as a discussion about clubmaking/fitting methodology.
Oh--and by the way, I am still waiting for some sort of documentation of your credentials.

Sic semper tyrannis.........................

MOBILE FITTING is now available!!! Information available on our site: www.docgriffingolf.com

MOI measurement takes a MOI instrument.

Doc,  Loved your discussion on lie angle/M.O.I.  Last year I purchased an OEM set of irons that swing weighted at D2 thru the set.  Right or wrong I bought them with graphite stiff 75gm shafts in an attempt to increase ball flight over my old forged clubs (steel 120 gm R300 flex).  In spite of the fact that the lofts of the new irons are 2 degrees stronger than my old forged clubs, my ball flight was significantly higher.  Mission accomplished.  My problem was that the clubs felt too light.  I did some research on line and became intrigued with M.O.I fitting.  Consulted with some fitters, and it was suggested that I start with the PW and add 2 gms of lead tape until I found a "feel" with the PW that performed to my satisfaction.  I did this and found my preferred feel at E0 swing weight with the PW.  Without going the route of the algebraic computations to determine the exact length and weight of each higher numbered club, I reduced the swing weight of each club 1 swingweight as I moved thru the set, ending up with D7 with the 5 iron. While I understand this is not the way it is typically done to MOI a set, it did not require disassembling the set of irons to affect the exact changes.  I like the feel of the clubs, however contact on the clubface consistently is center to toe, on every club.  Did I screw up the lie angle or some other dynamic aspect of the set with my tinkering?  I really do like the feel of the clubs now.

 Great to read good news for a change Terry. Apart from massage and physiotherapy as suggested by Robert Meade, see if you can turn up a squash ball. Always found then good for sitting and squeezing when watching videos etc. Just get back to the course in great shape. DH

Yeah, I won't watch Haney because I don't want to hear his swing thoughts in my head. :)
Feherty after him is fun, though. I wish they'd spend a little more time on the interviews and a little less with him trying so hard to be funny. He's much funnier when he doesn't try so hard.

Very well put sir.  Both swing weight and MOI can be correlated to each other. Swing weighting was a quick approximation of MOI.  I don't believe though in my video that I stated one was better than another only that I use MOI and finding the correct MOI is an integral and important part of my fitting process.  However, I will now say that I think it is preferable.  To make this point a bit more succinct, a swing weighted set of clubs at D2 all have the same swing weight of D2.  Pardon me for stating the obvious.  However, and MOI matched set of irons starting at the 3 iron with a swing weight of D2 would run all the way to a swing weight of 5.5 in the PW.  I don't know about you, but that's pretty significant to me.  I would think the "feel" would be quite noticeable.  

Definitely something I'll need to get checked. My poor clubs haven't been looked at since they were built 25 years ago. :)

 I wasn't playing, so I wasn't in any situation where decelerating would be a problem.  I was merely chipping balls onto the green to check my distances.  Might come in handy--I play on two courses that host PGA and LPGA tournaments, and the greens are huge.  When  I'm 10 yards short of the green and the flag is near the far side, I'm a long distance from the cup.