Where's The Sweet Spot?

Doc:

 While on this thought process. If someone is hitting consistently towards the toe of their driver, but the ball is still going relatively straight, where on the club would they want to place lead tape to try and move their contact spot closer to the center of the face.

 I realize the best option is to be properly fitted, but in the interim, is it possible with the proper placement of lead tape to move their contact more towards center. I understand the heel tape to help with a slice and toe tape to help with a hook, but how does one move a consistant contact in or out on the club face with lead tape. 

"So: Will the average recreational golfer benefit by using a blade iron set vs cavity back/ hybrid set? "

I would say, "Absolutely with PPGS." I have both a set of tour blades and a set of cavity-backs. I used to be really erratic with the blades and my old rotational swing. Now that I have learned PPGS and am practicing with both sets of clubs, I have found that I am starting to hit the blades better, unless I let old habits creep back in.

Beware of the "Old" guy

Agree Steve, many times I'm happy to hit it somewhere on the face and I can always tell by the sound and feel before I even look up! Where I really notice the difference is with my driver. The sweet spot is just above center and a fraction toward the toe. I've put the tape on the face to test where hit it most often and where it was struck when I had the longest and purest flight. Unfortunately I most commonly hit it inside te center toward the heal and am working on getting it toward the afore mentioned. Last time out as I mentioned the other day I was getting some sweet center strikes and drwing the ball, something I know you do naturally (if memory serves me right). Any how back to the irons, I also share the entire clubface with each ball :)

T, you are correct.

Robert my friend

The R11's are at least a 1/4 inch shorter 5 iron is 37.75 and cut a 1/2 increments from there.They have the KBS 90 gram steel labeled as R but would have to test to see what they really are.
My mizuno 5 iron is 38.1 and then cut to 1/4 inch increments. They have the KBS tour R 120 gram shaft. We talked about when rebuilding the mizunos keeping the flex around 4.8 - 5 but I think he rebuilt them to the specs that he built my APII'S  that got stolen to which was 5.3 flex .

The big difference is the weight. The mizunos are potentially 30 grams heavier just in shaft weight not including the added weight of having them MOIed. He also adjusted the weight to help with a slight over the top move that I have had for ever.

The R11's are slightly bigger head I can hit them easy and get my normal distance even with the temps being in the 50's are hit them harder and get a little more out of them and still hit them straight.

The mizunos I played yesterday and shot 77 and had to work hard to get there. My missis are worse with these.

When I had my original fitting a year and a half ago I was probably more rotational than I thought then but and am follow this swing method 100 % now just not going to say that I swing the club exactly like Don or DJ but with in the parameters.

What  in my swing has changed if anything for the better I do not know and does it really matter .

Just a note I am not saying my fitter fitted me wrong are anything and am a strong believer in being fit properly.

My unintelligent guess would be the difference in the 2 heads.

I play cavity backs also and have hit blades but perfer cavity backs. I think it is indvidual preference.

I used to play R7's great clubs. I hit the R9's did not like them.

Played today shot 78 thats the fourth 70's round in they last 2 weekends. I made a putter switch today went to my long putter started out a little shakey with it bogied the first 4 holes the greens were mown this morning and were very fast I did not exspect that. Settled in and started making putts had 1 30 footer for birdie drained it. I may stay with this putter permenately .

Just beware of the "old guy."

Stay warm, B

RR, Thanks for your thoughts and comments. Had a few holes today.A glimmer with the r7, playing much better with it. Took all my PingG2's out of the bag and added the Mizuno Finalist with carbon shafts for the next foray on the green stuff. Prior to the G2's I played these in UK and was in the low to mid 80's on courses in England and Scotland I had never seen let alone played before. Much less cavity backed than the Pings. Today took out a PingZing 5iron just for old times sake. After the Mizuno's I will do the same with the Zings after todays showing with the 5iron. Nailed three greens with it, big smiles all around.Today some bad, but far more good.So getting there and I will succeed. PMG RR and GBSAPS or else for me! Here today, sun out, me in shorts and short sleeves and a sun hat. Jungle type and can still play up to the left ear on the follow thru' Rain for tomorrow, but may be busy anyway. So good luck with your game Monday your time. Here already 5-30pm Monday ; - )

If weight would help it would have to go towards the heel.  How does it work?  One of those sweet mysteries of life.  It also doesn't always work but I've seen it work more times than not.  I think what it's doing is giving the player more "feel" of the head and a better awareness of where it is in the swing.

Let's just say, without getting too technical, that the MOI of the club was incorrect for DJ and that when the MOI was changed by adding weight he hit the ball in the center of the club face.  The weight was added in the hosel which brought the center of gravity back towards the hosel more than towards the toe.  So, you be the judge.

SimplyGolf, Any soldier who has been trained knows that a 'palm punch' [for a better word], is far more lethal than a fist punch.The padded heel of the hand is less likely to be damaged. Having said that I still get his meaning.Unlike you I am striking the ball much better when I am not trying to KNOCK THE BALL OUT! heh heh heh.

No bubble have you burst. I was simply sharing something helpful about finding the sweet spot. You know me, I thought, and know that of course I realize that there is alot involved in consistently hitting ones clubs well, including properly fit clubs.BTW, wouldn't your number 2 point and your number 4 point need corrective PRACTICE to get right? I may not be a fitter but I think the 4 books I have on club fitting and getting fit myself recently all helped me to appreciate that it takes more than practice to hit the ball well. Heck, I practice quite a bit and still hit it all over the face! lol! Wongphil seems to have the spirit of what I meant.

Thanks Doc.

I hate to be a bubble buster but this is a common misconception held by the golfing public.  Practice actually has little to do with hitting the sweet spot.  In order of what I consider to be the priority or importance would be:  1.  Correct MOI of the club  2.  Having the ball in the proper position at address relative to the club face (I see numbers of golfers line the ball up on the toe and think it's in the middle of the face)  3.  Correct shaft tip and lie angle to avoid excessive toe down effect which will also cause toe shots  4.  Improper swing paths delivering the club head on a path that causes toe shots (can happen on over the top and closing the face or steep inside to out with an open club face)

No it is a long putter. I usually bring it out early in the season and late when the greens are slower. My buddy's say that I should keep it in the bag all year round that I put better with it. I have a pendulum putting stroke which the long putter is easier to keep on line straight back and straight through. When the short putter goes bad the head is wiggling all over the place.

I do have a equipment quandary. The last for rounds that I have played I did not play with my Mizunos. Last Saturday I got up late and rushed to the course. My wife took truck to the store the night before and took my clubs out and did not tell me. Last Saturday I played with demo R11 irons and hit a bunch of greens in reg shot 76. Played them again last Sunday hit a bunch of greens shot I think 78. Played them yesterday shot 74 and today shot 78 hit a bunch of greens both days  and can work them booth ways easily.

I have struggled all year hitting greens in reg until the last 4 rounds. I'm going to talk to my builder fitter this week and see if maybe we need to do some adjusting to the Mizuno's.
I do have a option of buying these demo R11's if I want them my home course is trying to dump / sell everything in their pro shop before winter. I can get them for 350.00 but wood rather see if we can straighten out the Mizunos.

BAMA over LSU by 14 next weekend.

PS. From yesterday's blog.
After the video from Dave Seeman on the "figure of eight", it is ALL CHANGE! G2's back in the bag, for the next foray on the green sward. With me going back to what I thought was wrong on the hip bump. It may just be my saviour. Sometimes we don't trust that what we are doing is right, when it may well be.
Tom Wishon's finding the sweetspot will give that a go. I use the tee method. Will see if there is any difference at all.
I have hoisted aboard the comments from Lynn re, lie angle, MOI etc, etc. Agree totally.Sort out a fitter or three in New Zealand and then maybe we will follow the trend and have the clubs made to our personal requirement specifications.

BTW golfers, though most of you know how to find the sweet spot on your clubs, here's a how to from Tom Wishon:
1. Hold the club by the grip with the fingers of your left hand with the clubface facing you.
2. Hold a golf ball between the thumb and the first finger of your right  hand and strike the clubface with the ball hard enough to drive the clubhead backward. If the clubhead moves straight back, you are hitting on the sweet spot. If it wants to twist in one direction or the other, you are missing the sweet spot. Keep pinging until you find it.
3. Mark the spot with a perminant marker. Remember that the perminant mark or line found at the top center of many clubs today as placed there from the maker may not be (and is often not accurate.

Now it's up to you to hit this spot more often through practice. Good luck!! Some thing you can do to practice this is place a contact decal (purchased at many golf stores) or a piece of tape like duck tape and notice where your usually hitting it and adjust from there.

The heads may indeed be the difference. Like I mentioned,many golfers shop or end up focusing mainly on the head shape and look and our eyes are naturally drawn to that. Don't underestimate the difference in feel and performance that the shafts and length play. Shorter is nearly always easier to hit. A d that 30-50 gram difference in weight may play more into it than you think. 350.00 for clubs that are easier to hit and making it easier for you to go low would be hard to resist.

This excellent video puts me in more of a quandary than ever. A week or so ago I brought up this very question and it appears to have been answered in depth in Haps letter. Great role model for us young 'uns Hap [2decades behind you] ; - )
My comment was, that I checked every club in my bag, by using a tee whilst holding the shaft of the club like a pendulum. All the Cavity back PingG2 irons 4HL,5HL,6,7,8,9,PW,SW and a MB LW, were checked. In all cases with my ad hoc tapping the clubface with the point of the tee, the area where the club went back without the toe or heel twisting, was 1cm to the rear of the centre of the clubface! So you can imagine my dilema after watching this video. I have a sharpie mark at the tops of all my irons, and this is where I have been[when I remember hahaha], addressing the ball. My shorter clubs PW,SW,9,8,7 have been performing very well indeed. 6,5HL,4HL [when needed, not so often these days], also very good. The 24deg Rescue and 5W excellent and 3W reasonable.Yesterday the Driver was not too bad at all either. At the course was let thru' on the first tee by a trio of lads. Extolled the virtue of SwingSurgeon.com and proceeded to hit the best drive on the first hole, I have ever hit. After a few holes one of the guys asked, "Is it still working" I was in the middle of the fairway, he was in the trees on my fairway, way off line. I smoked a 5W [show off] to the edge of the green. He duffed his shot. I think you have another trio of Surgites in the offing.
Will mull over the blades versus cavity backs, once I am satisfied with my swing.
Until then, comments on the sweetspot are indeed welcome.
Breakfast calls, must hae ma' porridge in the morning hahaha!
PMG and Succeed, GBSAPS all the way Roy Reed.

I'm not being critical here but you are just regurgitating what the OEMs have fed you for years.  While in practical application what they have said is truth, it has been propagated in an untruthful way.  The image that they want to give is that the "game improvement" clubs are by far more accurate and longer on off center shots.  The truth of the matter is that we are only talking a matter of a few feet in distance and dispersion.  The single most important feature to consider when looking that blades vs. cavity backs is the amount of offset.  This is what makes one easier to hit over the other for the higher handicap golfer.  That being said, there are blades available that have a fair amount of offset.  The other consideration is that for a really low club head speed guy he will need a club that has a very low and deep center of gravity to help get the ball elevated and launching on the proper launch angle.  You just can't find this in blades as a rule.

Glad to hear there is another 91 y o playing golf. I play 9 holes  on Sunday with a 91 y o., at Denton CC.
 A  few weeks ago he shot an 85--not bad. He uses a long, 'potato-masher' putter, open stance, and can sink it from 10 ft. off thre green.
Was tickled to hear about the 'Hammer' comparison. Recently built a putter out of a claw hammer head. While, a bit heavy, it really works  (tho, you do have to grind the front of the head flat). Which confrimed for me that equipment is important, but Problems are due to operator error.
Don, thanks for your down to earth, golf should be fun approach. Tho, not yet 70, have moved to the white tees, and golf is more fun.
Swanbeck
Argyle, Tx.

Sorry numbnuts mode rushing to go out : - ] NOT Lynn.....but Doc Griffin's comments! Duh! hahahaha

Dear Surge,
I really appreciate this lesson. I've been playing golf for 11 years and I'm 55. Since the beginning, I always bought cavity-backed clubs. Calloway and  Taylor Made were the two brand names I had bought. Then I took lessons at a different course and I had the pro fit me for clubs. He convinced me to use blades and although I always played with the cavity-backed, I was able to hit the blades well. Now, since I am a high handicapped hacker, people tell me I should use more forgiving clubs; i.e., cavity-backed. They told me I would hit them farther. Is that true?
Thank you,
Al McCausland

When I went for a driver fitting this past spring I felt like I was being ridiculed for having ball marks all over the club face. I got told it's because I swing too hard.

I have recently changed my irons ...... they work well. So my question is how do I find the "sweet spot". Is there are simple mechanical test like say hitting the face with a tool to find the real sweet spot so that I can compare it to the hit marks.

I awoke this morning to a nice 34 degrees (F) having forgotten it was Fall festival weekend so I had all that nice stuff to do with Josh. So after leaving "The Healing Place" festival last night I made it to Academy Sports in Trussville and picked up a dozen B330 balls got them home and marked them with two blue dots & arc'd line.The temperature is now 41, I'm good to go at 43 and I plan on knocking the smiles off a couple of  faces.
 I hope everyone has a great day & happy golfing!

Smith, thanks once again, for keeping it real.

My A3's help me, or at least help my brain to believe there is help.
I do not strike the ball nearly cleanly and consistently enough to
groove a spot on the clubface. 
+++++++
Don may not know this, but in martial arts, a palm strike can actually be preferable
to a fist strike. The palm strike is easier to execute correctly and doesn't break fingers.
And it can pack a wallop, often even more than a fist punch.

Is it possible that both blades and certain cavity-backs
have their place in PPGS theology?

Does the magic come from the center of the mass of the club head moving closer to the center line of the shaft? It would seem that this would cause less droop to compensate for.

J4,

Yes, here is a video explaining how to find your putters sweet spot, but the process is the same for any of your irons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Ya, I get best results with a quiet mind and body, but still athletic.
It's just a golf ball, not really the enemy. (or is it? lol)

And if the sweet spot CAN be discovered on cavity back irons,
It's still unclear why blades would remain the superior choice.

Palm strike & Fist punch both get results when executed correctly.

I would thinks so. I would play what ever you feel comfortable playing.

I am sorry that happened and at the same time glad it wasn't one of our fitters.  The critique also was incorrect.

Thanks for your prompt reply ...... obvious when you see it.

I also found the Surge's version from your link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

That make sense, Kevin. 

So, I'll update the question : if the sweet spot location is found on the cavity-back set,
and presuming the ball-striking is pretty clean, would there be an appreciable
difference vs blades for the recreational PPGS golfer ?  Maybe you've answered that too.

(We've focused on the sweet spot. We haven't even touched on MOI. Doc highlights that.)

I'm still early in this game, and guess my A3's were and are my first love.
They looked so beautiful the first time I ever saw them: not the hyped, gangly, over-sized look. No, these beauties were small, simple, and somewhat affordable. 

I'm conflicted. Dr. Leo Marvin may need to help me take Baby Steps.

And my lovely 3,4 and 5...what becomes of them? I remain conflicted: they help me
through troubled times. But then I can't deny it when my buddy smokes his 3 blade.

OK, cleansing breath. Focal point. 
OK...I'm good to go....I'm doing the work...I think I'll go play 9 with my A3's.

Roger, I like the way you think in more ways than one!

I understood the information and my point was to try and offer information that no matter how much you "practice", if there are things in the equipment that prevent you from achieving consistent center shots, it would become quite frustrating.  Seriously, how many people reading this blog thought that hitting the center of the club face was solely dependent on their ability to swing the club consistently and return it back to it's address position at impact?  I'd venture to say that probably 99%.  So, if a person is all over the club face then it's a swing issue.  If they are consistently off on toe or heel hits then it's other issues. My point was to offer information to help golfers understand why and how things happen and what can be done to correct it.  I was not belittling Robert's information at all.  But on that subject of practice, practice in an of it self is not the answer either.  You have to have the knowledge and understanding of what to practice and how to practice.  The adage that practice doesn't make perfect, it's perfect practice that makes perfect, is paramount.

True Steve I would bet on a defensive battle.

I got a call from one of my suppliers this morning to play a free round today so I turned around and went bag home and collected my clubs. We played a nice course called Stone Lick Hills 70.8/129 slope / rating from the blue tees at 6500 yards. Shot a 77 and hit my Mizunos well hit 11 greens and 10 fairways with the driver choked from 44 down to 43" really did not see a loss in distance but more accurate. The biggest difference I seen between the R11 demos and my mizunos is the weight. Today I just made a nice smooth swing with the mizunos not coming out of my shoes and hit them great.

Steve, I'm with you. The set of kzg ec II Doc built me are modified cavity back style, the only true cavity of the set is the 4, the scoring clubs are about 50/50 cavity-muscle back and I hit the heck out of them and don't see how much better it could get with a true blade.Must be one heck of a pie plate!
RTR.....I'm liking Roger's bama by 14 ;) but will settle for 10-9 in a defensive showcase.

WP:

 I'm sure Doc will correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe there is much adjustment if any possible with the offset of irons. This is a factor of manufacturing in the cast or forging process which sets the hosel a specific amount in front of each face. I could easily be wrong, but I've never heard of anyone having their offsets adjusted.

PMG

I wasn't finding fault nor being critical of what you stated.  It was information to the vast majority of golfers out there that think it's their fault that they don't hit the center of the club face.  It certainly can be but it can also be an equipment issue which most don't even realize exists.  I was merely trying to educate.

Practice in an of it self doesn't do much good if you don't know what and how.  Supervised practice, in other words, lessons would be helpful if there are swing issues.