Phil Roethle, a Maryland Surgite from the early days of PeakPerformanceGolfSwing.com, was curious about how Ben Hogan's swing compared to the PPGS and asked if there were any similarities between the two.
In a nutshell, Phil, not many. I never had the privilege of seeing Hogan play in person, but as many in my profession have done, I have studied his swing and discussed it with other professionals who knew him and had seen him play often. I've come to the conclusion that he had two, very different swings, during his career. When he first turned pro he had what I jokingly refer to as a Left Woods Swing. It was characterized by a very wide stance and a huge turn and upper body rotation that took his swing way past parallel. The net result was that he had a major league swing that often produced prodigious hooks.
Somewhere along the line, he changed his swing rather radically. First, he narrowed his stance considerably to be more like a PPGS stance. However, instead of loading the right side, flaring his feet outward and creating outward pressure on his knees, he took an entirely different route in order to limit his backswing. He squared his right foot, and quite often, pointed it a bit inside. Then he cocked his right knee inwards so that he could turn inwards into the right knee before he transitioned his weight to the left side. This created a reverse tilt in his swing but he could get away with it because he possessed an unusual amount of flexibility and suppleness.
How gifted was he? I once put this question to Dr. Ned Armstrong, a highly-respected orthopedic surgeon who has written extensively about the effects of the modern golf swing on the human body and who has been my mentor for nearly 25 years. Dr. Armstrong nearly choked when I asked him if Hogan's suppleness was a "1 in 50,000 kind of gift". "More like 1 in 5,000,000" was his answer. That would mean that, in any given generation, there are only a 1,200-1,500 people in the world with that extreme degree of suppleness and flexibility.
This certainly would explain why Hogan could play the way he did, practice extensively and never seem to suffer the ill effects that eventually come with a swing like his. It would also explain why most amateurs can't swing like Ben Hogan. For the rest of us mere mortals, swinging the way Hogan did puts abnormal amounts of stress on our bodies because they are not designed to operate that way. The golf instruction world ought to wake up to that fact and start teaching a swing that any golfer can learn and become proficient at without damaging his/her body.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
The PPGS from the Surge is
The PPGS from the Surge is one great swing. ÃÂ I have experienced a 10 stroke difference since adopting the swing, but lately, I have regressed and my scores are going back up!! ÃÂ ÃÂ I would like to see Don compare and contrast the swing of the "best ball striker of all time" Moe Norman with the PPGS. ÃÂ I think there are some great similarities and differences and would really be interested in Don's take on Moe's swing. ÃÂ
hello again. someone
hello again. someone commented on the "Shell Wonderful World of Golf" Series. great stuff. the old "All-Star Golf," program also used to be shown on the Golf Channel before they had a better stable of programming. Those films are sure fun to watch, though. One thing that stood out to me was watching them putt on those greens. Those greens were slow! you can see the grass sitting up, and they had to really hit the ball when putting. you mostly saw a lot of wrist action rather than the modern stroke. I recall a comment by Lord Byron when he was asked what was the greatest technological development during his life in golf. I think the interviewer expected him to say "steel-shafts," but Nelson's comment was that it was "lawnmowers." I would still love to see a real golf tournament played with hickory shafts and the old wound balls. I guess I am more of an old fart than I care to admit. This winter in the northeast (Queens, NY) has been most kind, but I am frothing at the bit for some real spring. Want to tune up my Surge Swing! Be well out there.
Yeah, most of that difference
Yeah, most of that difference is from the ball. No more wound balls. No more little balls of rubberbands for the cat to play with after the lawn mower hits them.
The major difference in irons is that over the years, the manufacturers have essentially changed the numbers on them. I compared a set of new Wilson/Staff irons to my 25 year old clubs and was amused that my 5 iron was the same loft and 1/2" shorter than the new 6 iron.
I notice that when you hit
I notice that when you hit the ball at the start of your video each time .ÃÂ The ball can be anywhere between you feetÃÂ ÃÂ today it was almost off the right foot heel.ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ It is never what i think is correct.ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ Why is this
Lylec
Hogan, Snead, and Nelson all
Hogan, Snead, and Nelson all came from extremely humble beginnings. Trevino, Seve, etc.
Hogan was probably the least "natural" of the first three, but he practiced more than anyone else in history.
ÃÂ Here's a place where you
ÃÂ Here's a place where you can do it.
http://www.oldbandongolflinks....
No matter how close I look
No matter how close I look all I can see is the anti-Surge swing at every check point and parameter.
Several people have mentioned that they thought they were similar and I'm just curious about what they are seeing.
I could make a long list of all of the differences but can only find one point of similarity. They do both point the club at the target at the end although they come from entirely different points to get there.
That would be camera angle.
That would be camera angle. When I tape my swing from down the line on the toe line and watch it at address my ball looks like it is always setting out on the toe of the club even though it is not.
Surge has made referance to
Surge has made referance to many of the greats of the past and present. He has made some comments, mostly in a positive light such as in this article'
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...
Interestingly, both Nicklaus and Sam Snead were very vertical at the top as were many pre 90's pros. Surge has refered to both several times. He uses J. Nicklaus as his example for consistent set up in our manual. Though the PPGS is different a a few areas from those pros it has many simularities ansd Surge has given the impression of deep respect for them more than once. Perhaps he will make more comparisons in the future. likely so.
more........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?N...
bump......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
That's cool. Looks like it
That's cool. Looks like it would be a very interesting day trying to play with those.
Interesting that in the 1920s
Interesting that in the 1920s, when faced with the same problem as we currently see in golf (balls designed to fly prodigiously far), they adjusted the rules to stop that so they didn't have to build the courses so much longer.
The video at this link
The video at this link demonstrates how the camera angle can affect how the ball position may appear differently than it is.
http://player.swingsurgeon.com...
Surge teaches to play the shortest wedge through the 7 iron in the middle (between the heels) and move each ensuing club progressively forward until the driver is just off the forward heel.
Personally I move every club in my bag progressively forward as each gets longer.
Hogan was almost freakeshly
Hogan was almost freakeshly flexable and double jointed. Snead was the original Freddy Couples. Butter. I've watched alot of the Shell Oil Wonderful World of Golf programs from the 50's and 60's and Sam Snead who was one of the longer hitters was booming it out there like 250. Seems like nothing today. they were showing three of the Champions tour guys who now average 290-300 yards or more and in 1982 those same players were averaging closer to the 260-270. They're 30 years older! Of course they said that the equipment and the golf ball today is the primary reason. We can only guess how well players like Jack Nicklaus would do(if in their prime)ÃÂ today if they could have had todays tools.
I would like to try it.
I would like to try it.
They both finish vertically.
They both finish vertically. That's all I've got. :)
ÃÂ Ha ha! Yeah same problem,
ÃÂ Ha ha! Yeah same problem, different time.
ÃÂ Sarazen,Varden, Hagan..
ÃÂ Sarazen,Varden, Hagan...No silver spoons anywhere near their houses growing up.
A lot of the early greats got their start only because there was a demand for caddies and that's how they got on the course and learned the game.
I think it's a shame that poor kids don't have that avenue much anymore.
No telling how much talent is going to waste because they will never be exposed to the game, at least enough to become any good at it.
Yo Steve, ÃÂ That video is
Yo Steve, ÃÂ
That video is the Young Moe Norman. ÃÂ Look at:ÃÂ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
The latest 2005 Moe Norman (RIP) eliminated most of the lower body movement and is very quiet compared to the Moe of 1960.
He has a limited back swing, is on a single plane, is ON ON and ON and finishes like a T finish and of course is long and always straight Moe "pipeline" Norman. ÃÂ check out the video. ÃÂ Cheers
I've noticed quite a few
I've noticed quite a few things like that lately, and from people I wouldn't expect it from.
Also seems like there are a lot more vertical clubs on the back swing than there were a few years ago and with Stricker's success and the length of JB Holmes more are using less wrist cock.
Of course they all still harp on "that good full turn" but maybe they'll come around on that some day.
At lot at stake MikefromKy,
At lot at stake MikefromKy, If either Rory or Lee Westwood win, they will progress to No1.Quite an incentive. I like Luke Donald a lot [my Scottish genes] and the Irish in me wouldn't mind Rory making it. Hahaha. May the best player win. PMG
An interesting article about
An interesting article about the equipment back when Bobby Jones played. He hit some long shots with that stuff. ;-)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/f...
I posted two links. One old
I posted two links. One old Moe Norman and one young. Both are single plane with arms and shaft in line on a virtual inclined circle. Both have the arms fully extended toward the ball in line with the shaft at address and impact. Both go as deep as possible into the SBG. Both never have a vertical shaft until after the swing is over. Both kick the left knee in with the heel off of the ground to allow more back swing rotation. And both only have a T finish well after the club is pulled back out of the SBG 3/4 of the way to the top where the shaft is on the same plane it was at address. Both have a closed stance and use an intentional pull to get the ball on the target line. Both have extreme forward head and upper body movement before impact.
None of which are similar to the PPGS and are opposite of it. One thing is the same. When he raises the club into a vertical position after the swing and points it at the target.
The younger Moe, when he was winning tournaments and setting scoring records, had more flexibility and lower body movement as you mentioned and as he got older he lost some of that as pretty much every rotational player does but the basics of the very flat rotation never changed.
Many people see similarities to his swing and the Surge swing. I don't see them and the more I slow it down and draw lines and angles on all of the differences the more I see a swing that is almost a complete opposite of the Surge swing on every checkpoint.
ÃÂ I suppose....As long as
ÃÂ I suppose....As long as you don't click back a few frames and consider that as part of the finish.
Edit: Hey Robert. Stop the bottom link I posted at 1:30 and see how much of an after swing fake out he does on finishing down the line.
You all may find this
You all may find this interesting:
Haskell Ball Patent
ÃÂ Just curious. What do you
ÃÂ Just curious. What do you see as similar?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
There use to be a couple of
There use to be a couple of Pro's here in Ciny about 20 years ago that had a Moe Norman swing School here I don't think it lasted but maybe 2-3 years. When I first started playing the skins game that I played in there was a guy that showed up and started playing that used Moe's method even had clubs built for it he was not to bad of a player but he only stuck around a couple of weeks because all the better players heckled him all the time. He was the only person I ever saw using that method.ÃÂ I would think it would be a hard method to duplicate.
I have studied the Hogan
I have studied the Hogan swing and I would say their are 3 phases. The first and second Don referred to and the 3rd which he developed as a hybrid of #2 after his car accident. The "hogan twist" and the Hogan right foot were important aspects but Don is correct that Hogan possessed timing and flexibility that enabled a man of small stature to drive with the big boys. The reverse tilt actually initiated the down-swing by initiating a weight shift. This swing put a lot of pressure on the right knee. Hogan himself said his swing after the accident was never as good as before which was to be expected. Too bad Ben was not more open about sharing his secrets. There is a Canadian golfer who I believe runs a web site called: Secret In the Dirt that is based on the Hogan swing.
That is very cool. That would
That is very cool. That would be the first rubber core ball put into regular use about 1902.
ÃÂ FYI:
ÃÂ FYI:
If any have not seen it, there is an old movie 1951 with Glenn Ford on the life of Hogan, Follow the Sun. Here are some Utube clips.
http://www.youtube.com/results...
You may find it at a video store and it can be purchased used(VHS Format) for 15.00 plus S/H on Amazon. It is a very good film.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb...
I have practiced that swing
I have practiced that swing some and it actually had some big advantages for me when it came to ball contact. It is almost impossible to hit the ball fat or thin with that swing because the arms are fully extended on the same line as the shaft at the ball at impact.
In fact until recently my son's swing was probably closer to Moe's swing than anyone else's swing. He is attempting to make a change to more of a conventional swing and doing pretty well with the change but does hit an occasional fat shot, whereas he NEVER hit a fat shot with his old Moe Norman similar swing.
Hogan was unlucky that Surge
Hogan was unlucky that Surge was not around in his day. Today's video was well worth the watch. One of the things I learned the hard way was, comparing! One or the other for me, hence I am committed to the PPGS Swing. My best golf buddy gave it a try, but tinkered and tried to mix and match. Fatal. He is still rotationally swinging, with a 'bionic' hip! Woods and others on the PGA tour are suffering after putting their bodies through torture for years. Like many of us did as well, though not at their level.
My present swing will do me, thankyou very much. I am totally indebted to Surge and the Surge Nation for their unstinting help and assistance. PMGAS and WE WILL~!
ÃÂ http://inventors.about
ÃÂ http://inventors.about.com/od/...
ÃÂ FYI:
ÃÂ FYI:
I am watching Morning Drive on the Golf Channel. They just showed a tip, given by ladies, in regards to a proper waggle. They actually said, try and imagine you are taking it back into a catchers mitt in a one piece take away with no wrist action. Where have I heard that before. They also recommend practicing your waggle on one foot to keep your lower body quite, or stable. Hmm, stable lower body, one piece take away, into a catchers mitt, no wrist action, good stuff.
PMG
ÃÂ Yeah. He does go a lot
ÃÂ Yeah. He does go a lot more around all the way through.
Well, I always enjoy Surge's
Well, I always enjoy Surge's videos. Ben Hogan was supple, huh? well, I guess. he survived a head-on car collision with a bus and returned about a year later to win either the L.A. Open or U.S. Open or maybe it was both. He always walked with a noticeable limp after that but was a force perhaps unequaled in the annals of the game, especially when ÃÂ you eliminate the other immortals, just about all of whom (except Sam Snead!) were born with the proverbial silver spoon (and I do not mean a three-wood). I guess you can tell I'm a Ben Hogan fan. Well, I am also a Surge fan - at nearly 65 years of age I have regained much lost distance, am hitting it straighter, and finally have a clue when I get over the ball. One thing Ben Hogan was known for was not suffering fools gladly, so with that in mind, I will sign off now.ÃÂ
The error in that article is
The error in that article is that Haskell filed for the patent in 1898, but the ball didn't come into regular manufacture and use for several more years. At least according to other histories of golf (like the one you linked earlier about the clubs Bobby Jones used).
Customer Support:
Customer Support:
I just purchased my locker and found that I was unable to use Pay Pal to remit payment. The logo is being shown, but clicking on it accomplished nothing and there was no Pay Pal selection in the payment drop down option window. Not a big problem, but I do prefer to use Pay Pal when ever possible over my credit card.
Also sent a message through the Support email link.
PMG
Yesterday I was watching a
Yesterday I was watching a bit from Mayakoba and I noticed something interesting. The Shark was playing, and it's been a while since I've actually seen him swing much, so I was struck by the setup and the finish of his swing. Narrow stance, weight back a bit (not as much as a PPGS setup, but not equally distributed). Through the ball he swings up and recoils to a relaxed finish facing the target. The finish looks a lot like DJ's from the Driver videos when he swings at 95%. Really seems to yank back the recoil so the club momentum doesn't throw him flat on his back. :)
In today's golf, I'm looking forward to the match of youth vs. guile when Rory meets the Mechanic. Poor Keegan yesterday looked like he didn't know what happened on the first three holes. Wonder if we'll see something similar today.
Surge, great comments. Now I
Surge, great comments. Now I am interested in your similar thoughts on Snead, Nicklaus and Byron Nelson. ÃÂ I love the daily videos and have a lot of things to take to the range this spring. Thanks for being so smart and really finding answers for us guys with back issues who want to golf forever.ÃÂ
Harry Varden played with
Harry Varden played with Spalding's Varden Flyer on his tour around the states in 1900. It had pimples instead of dimples and was a gutta percha.
"Curiously the only failure of Harry's tour turned out to be the Varden Flyer." "American golfers took up the game by the tens of thousands, but not with the ball he'd come over to sell them on; for beginners, the new wound rubber ball made the perplexing game much easier to handle than Harry's redoubtable gutta-percha."
Mark Frost
The Greatest Game Ever Played
1901
Walter Travis becomes the first golfer, in the U.S. Amateur, to win a major title with the Haskell ball. When Sandy Herd wins the British Open and Laurie Auchterlonie the U.S. Open the next year with the Haskell, virtually all competitors switch to the new ball.
The only thing I can see
The only thing I can see similar is they 2 totally different swings. Oh and grey hair.ÃÂ
Rory vs The Mechanic should
Rory vs The Mechanic should be a good match.