Should You Be Cocking Your Wrists?

I tried several items under the glove and watchband, before finding the Jama Wrist Brace, but, everything seemed to gouge into the back of my hand and wrist. I guess I was a severe wrist bender. I found my pocket comb to work the best, but even that caused gouging and rubbing under my glove and watch band.  I also have one of those clicker things which actually make a snapping noise if/when it is bent/flexed too far. It let's you know the error, but doesn't do anything to prevent it, like the Jama does.
http://www.dwquailgolf.com/tra...

Surge, thanks for today's tip reaffirming the position of the wrists in our swing.Having spent the last couple of weeks studying the manual & video series again as well as checking out numerous sites on the web about the golf swing,ball flight and dynamics and the like, I've have found numerous times where others follow the same thought on the wrists role in the swing.I'm also noticing that things you have been mentioning from day 1 are also becoming more prevalent in other Instructors swing thoughts, such as your "gravity is free" and letting the arms free fall initially in the FUS. I had to chuckle every time I saw something like that during all my reading,some were calling it the "free fall" but I did get a kick out of how many times they harped on whatever it was like it was something that had just came to them yesterday & what we Surgites have been hearing and seeing all along.
 Thanks for your time, your swing and especially your mentoring.
Booger

Loading has more to do with our "big" muscles than with the smaller hand and wrist joints and actions. No wrist action is required for "loading". In the Swingsurgeon method we PLHR. That is "Pre Load Heavy Right" in our set up. This removes one more step in our simplified swing. It also helps us avoid swaying and moving off the ball.
This loading is the same thing that a baseball pitcher does in his wind up, a tennis player does in their preperation to serve, and a boxer does in getting ready to throw a punch and loading up on his back leg. We however PRE load rather than move back onto that leg as with most traditional swings and sports. The big difference between us and a rotational golfer is we don't load up on our backs also, rather we hold the legs and hips with a limited turn. There is indeed a stretch felt on our shoulders and arms at the top at 3/4's but it is not at 90-120 degrees but only 70*. Therefor this loading doesn't break our backs. This loading can be done without wrist cock.

Thank's Robert for adding to what Don explained
This summer I got very confused with this difference
in cocking or flexing, last year I was doing great
with the help of Don's videos (stiff wrists)
well this spring I wanted to improve my distance
and started to cock the wrists and I dont know why
but at first it was going well until all went to hell
 I could not get the face to be square, hitting
it to the wright when I tryed to fix this I was all over
the place well this week I finely went back to kepping
the wrist strait and voilà I'm back in the fairway and that's
the only thing I changed .
this just confirmes and makes me understand that Don's
golf lessons dont need fixing
thank's Don keep up the good work

Ron from Qc. Canada....

Thanks Philip,
I just reread my entry above from this morning done on my Droid and noticed two gramatical errors. My Droid entry doesn't allow for spell or word corrections afterwords. It often throws in random words too like 'more' and when I said left in the third sentence I meant right. Fotunately you translated it correctly :) Glad it was clear enough pal.
Down the middle,
Robert M.
PMG!!

Surge has pointed out that intentional cocking of the wrists normally does lead to cupping or bowing. Except for those with unusually perfect timing this leads to troubles because at the top a cupped wrist has the face severly closed and bowed wrist will cause an open clubface. Both will lead to military golf as mentioned without perfectly timed compenstions. This subject always brings so much fun conversation. A key point to remember is that this swing is all about fewer moving parts and less stress on the body. The no wrist cock is one more way this swing can be simple, pain free and consistent.

Boogm, Glad to hear you're feeling better from your bug. I've just caught bits and pieces of the blog this week and still haven't been able to watch the last few videos yet, perhaps today, maybe, if nobody calls. Get well and, PMG 

I'm off to the practice putting green at Los Prados. Going to work on several drills and then my one ball only method. I like the one ball because I make a putting course out of every hole and basically work on lagging to the hole(or making a long one) and then making the second putt regardless of what's left. That forces me to judge the first one perfectly. Having several balls to putt at the same hole from the same spot doesn't replicate true course conditions.
Ah, it's already 100* at 10:30am. Well a little sun block, lots of extra water and my hat and I'm outa here.

What about when the left wrist is slightly cupped at the top of the backswing?  Is this normal or should the left wrist be perfectly flat at the top?

Thanks Bruce, I always appreciate your veiwpoints as a massage therapist I also deal with golfers wrist and elbow issues. It's amazing how people contort and torture their bodies in the name of sport.

Gee, I only had 1 birdie and 1 bogie and the rest were par's. LOL.  

Steve good round under those conditions slow play is not fun.

 I guess I will have to raise my stakes a little bit tomorrow  and shoot for low 70's upper 60's at my home course and mid to low 80's in my tournament Sunday playing a tought course a lot of water and a lot of trees and bunkers on either side of the fairways and greens.

I told my buddie that was wanting to buy APII's he has had them playing them for 3 weeks trying them out that he had until today to either cough up some cash or I wanted them back so I got them back and am going to play them this weekend I maybe better off playing them being they are stiffer and I am hitting the Mizuno's which are weaker 15 + yards longer now than I was earlier this year and last year just for the accuracy.

Roger

Bob, my understanding of the wrist cock is an upward hingeing of the wrists without any side movements. Is this what you mean by flexure? Thanks.

Little bit of a 24 hour bug ( I hope), Robert. Haven't had anything to eat today but couple of slices of toast and just drank a bottle of G2 ( low cal gatorade) all day but I have awoken for a bit and I'm starting to feel hunger pangs so maybe I'm coming around.

we are actually deviating our wrist OUT of a neutral position. Then as we
approach the horizontal position in our back swing, we can ALLOW not
force the wrist to return to its anatomical neutral position.

From what I read/see/hear, I think it is debatable if cocking the wrist can include cupping.  I saw a demonstation by Gary Player where he talked about cocking his wrists at the top, and the stop action picture of his left wrist at the top showed extreme cupping.    I think it depends on which teaching pro is doing the demonstration.    Whatever the definition, I did find that if I went beyond untentional flexing at the top and activated the wrist muscles in an attempt to get more distance, the left wrist cupped with the result I mentioned, where the club head went outside without any tactile feedback.

In addition to the link Terry gives below, simply remember the Surge principle that the palms should remain perpendicular to the ground throughout the swing. If the palms are perpendicular to the ground, so are the backs of the hands. The hands will be slightly inside the toe line at the top.

Robert, The one ball method was one of Harvey Penick's favorite drills for the short game and he also used it to break kids into the game.Have fun.

I am sorry but I have to totally disagree with this.  The wrist cock (not to exceed 90 degrees) is essential in activating the lever system in a mechanically sound swing.  The lever consists of the arm and the golf shaft.  On the downswing, the weight of the club head resists the free fall of the arm and will naturally cock the wrist.

Way to go Steve!

Gee, If I golfed that badly, I'd consider it a very good round. I know, before you say it again, It's not a hard course, but still!

Robert

See Robert F. response to me below 49 minutes ago.

Roger

Hey Boog, crossed my fingers and eyes.  Try a little more toast and gatorade.  Can't keep a good man down.

The "lag" is already in your setup, that is the angle between your arms and the club-shaft at address. As long as you keep this angle throughout your swing you'll be fine. Clubhead speed (acceleration through impact) comes from rotating the arms to square up the clubhead at impact, NOT from releasing cocked wrists as this has to be done before the club reach the 7 to 8 o'clock position, hence there's no acceleration left when you hit the ball. Also, cocking your wrists means that you'll probably extend your arms away from the vertical plane as the release tends to pull your arms away from your body and that will also affect your ball striking.

Robert, I agree completely. I entered this discussion the last time around, but avoided it this time. You have stated my sentiments fully. I still say,
To ANY having trouble with keeping the left wrist firm, Please do yourself a favor and get one of these very low cost training aids. Just a few swings will let you see and feel the difference with a truly flat left wrist. They are also available in right wrists for lefties.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...

Thanks Terry, feeling much better today

Hello Robert,

I assume that you do not own the videos or the manual, or you would know the difference between cocking and flexing, as they are defined for the Surge Swing.  These two words are well defined in the manual.

Some flexing of the wrists will occur at the transition from the back swing to the FUS.  This is caused by the inertia of the club pulling against the wrist joint. 

Cocking is the folding of the wrists, and should never be confused with flexing.  When the wrists are cocked, the club face angle established at address is changed, and it becomes almost impossible to regain the original face angle at impact.

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob 

  Don
     I wish you teaching pro,s would get together on cocking the wrists ,all the material you read says to cock the wrists and on the downswing they say to hold the lag till the last minute if there is no wrist cock how can there be lag? all this material drives you nuts,one says one thing the other says something different. 

                                                             Going Bonkers

Steve Smith:

   How True!! And conversely, how quickly the score mounts when we miss a few putts! 

   Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

   Amos

Yes, if you read my response to Philip below you'll see I meant right. Sorry, glad you figured that out. I blog on my Droid at work and it's link does not allow for editing so I couldn't fix that error. 

It is one of the few tennis tennis ball game titles that does not need a regular experiencing position. 

Looks like a lively blog this evening. To cock or not to cock?, does he or doesn't he?,does it matter? I would like nothing more at the moment but to join in this debate but alas I have been ill all day and can't sit up more than a few minutes at a time and the Charge Nurse is giving me the evil eye again. Our swing is a natural release swing,and like some of the regulars have already pointed out, we do not cock our wrists. As also pointed out, there will be a natural flexing of the wrists at the top due to the weight of the club head,we try to maintain our wrist all the way down to the release of the club. I tend to see our swing as a pendulum and the action of the wrist is passive acting only as a hinge. Ergo, soft hands which let us release the club into the ball, releasing the lag which we have held from top and then momentum then carries us up to the T finish.
 Oh sorry,lost my train of thought, could be the medication or the rumbling in my gut, but here's my answer to the first questions I posed. NO! Now I need to scoot, I see someone toting a yardstick and coming my way! Later gang. Maybe when I'm of better spirits I can delve into the debate a little better.

Please show/explain what is meant by "loading" versus cocking wrists.

If you watch the pros who are being televised on the weekend, you will notice that 99% of them have a perfectly straight target-side wrist at the top of the backswing and some of the pros like Dustin Johnson, actually bow the target-side wrist. I would never recommend cupping unless its a specialty shot that your trying to hit. I like what Harvey Penick taught about the wrist being cocked which is if the back of your target side hand is straight in line with your forearm and toe of your club is pointing skyward when its parallel to the ground during your backswing, then your wrist is cocked. (This is not verbatim but para-phrased). However, Surge does not teach that to his students because as he points out, its just one more thing that can go wrong in the swing, so you have to choose who you are going to follow becasue the two are not compatible. 

Boog,
What happened to you? Hope you're alright. Feel better.

It was a good putting session. I also used Surges drill of a string 3 inches above the ground stretched between two pegs. One placed an inch or two past the cup with the string over the middle of it to the other peg stretched 20 feet or so away. Can you 'see' that? You set this up on the flattest and straightest putt possible. The idea is to putt under the string. It teaches how to putt straight. As we know ALL putts are straight initially to a target line or in my case over a tiny spec within inches of the ball. Anyway it helps determine if you are square and putting straight- not pushing or pulling but 100% square.Great drill- you can also pop a line on the grass also with construction string as an optional way. I perfer the pegs (or thin stakes) because I can carry that in my bag and set it up in minutes. I had six balls. I placed the first 3 feet from the hole and the rest another 3 feet back until #6 ball was 6 yards or 18 feet away. I was 'on' today and within 3 tries made all six fairly easily. So I lined them up under the string again and then took the string away. Again starting with the 3 footer worked my way back to the 18 footer and made all 6. Ya baby! Then I moved on to the one ball drill. As SGW says above I went from one hole to the next and it was great practice. Hot as a mo fo out there(104) but hey, I'm healthy and not too smart so it works :)
I'm planning on playing 9 holes maybe each of the next three straight days before work. I gotta good feeling about the putter. Did I tell you my putter is now my best friend?

Robert F. if your reading this remember you're invited any or all mornings I go.
Hope to see you there.

Hi, Robert F--thought I might add just one more bit to your description of "actively changing the angle of the wrist and forearm."  I get into trouble when I get a little too energetic or feel the need to get a little more distance, and I wrongly activate the muscles in the area of the wrists.  It took me several weeks to figure out that the left wrist cups, the angle of the shaft changes from where it was just previously, which changes the orientation of the club face relative to the swing path, and I have to hope that I can get the wrists back to where they should have been in the first place.  If I am unsuccessful (the normal case), the changed angle of the shaft compared to where it should have been takes the club head outside, with all the possible problems associated with it--pulls, fades, and shanks. 

Those of you who try to cock your wrists--hold that wrist cock on a slow motion downswing and watch where your club goes.  That's where it will go if you don't compensate for the wrist cock on the way down. 

Steve Smith:

    I agree with your assessment completely.  No intentional hinging -- perphaps a "passive" flexing during the transition -- but NOT deliberate -- "it just happens"

    On the matter of cupping or bowing the wrist - -I seem to be able to "get away" with an occasional bowing of the left wrist (probably my most frequent swing error) but any cupping of the left wrist is DISASTER -- big time! Anything can happen -- left right chunky or thin.
 
    Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG
 
    Amos

Robert, Glad to see I'm not alone. I just made the same right/left error with the forward arm getting to the toe line. It's a terrible thing to waste one's mind. LOL, Sorry Karl.

I honestly never thought of wrist cocking that way. I get pretty good accuracy on the course, but I'm still shocked it can actually injure me. Thanks so much for the heads-up.

When I cover this issue with both golf students and clients with wrist problems I try to get them to understand that what most people think of as wrist cock is actually a neutral position for the wrist (grip a pencil in your fist). It goes a long way to speed up the learning curve, and reduce pain and injury. When we let the club drop to the ground at set up, we are actually deviating our wrist OUT of a neutral position. Then as we approach the horizontal position in our back swing, we can ALLOW not force the wrist to return to its anatomical neutral position. We then let the arms roll over at impact like Don was talking about, then none of our moving body parts are being stressed or forced during a Peak Performance Golf Swing. Just another point of view. Bruce The Rolfer Golfer

Hope you have a good round, I'm off to wipe my eyes now, That updated version tugged all the heart strings.

Steve

In reply to your response 4 hrs ago to Robert F.

It is amazing how history repeats it self I new when I seen this blog earlier today that it was going to be a interesting  evening.

Went to the range again tonight 93 and 110 heat index hit the ball very well tonight again even the 4 hybrid.

All this wrist cock stuff I do not even think about. I just setup and swing the club like Don tells to swing the club to the best of my ability. I think we as players sometimes get our brains to clogged with to many thoughts and it enables us to perform to the best of our abilities when were out on the course. The less I think about the swing when I am playing the better I play.

 All by the way great 9 @ 3 under.

Steve,
Loved your list of bama 10 ways to express your play. I'm not a red neck by birth but live vicariously through you and Booger. It would be a ball to get you, Boog and Terry for a foursome some day. There are enough differences yet enough camaraderie that we would laugh our **sses off for 4 hours I'm sure. Are you guys 100% sure you can't make it to the LV tourny? Dang we would have a blast hanging out. The only hang over would be sore ribs from non stop laughter!!
There are several other guys on this blog I'd love to meet and play with too.I know Dan will be here. And possibly Amos. No doubt a good time will be had by all this September. Who knows, maybe we will all meet some day. 

Have seat at the kitchen table if you will. Lay your hands in front of you and while they're laying on the table softly putmore them together in a neutral grip position without a club. Now simply rotate your hands to the left until the back of your right hand is on the table. Notice how it looks like your wrists are cocked. Now slowly ROTATE your hands back over to the left until the back of you left hand is on the table. Notice how it LOOKS LIKE you just uncocked your hands? All you did was rotate your hands and forearms to the right side (that's how they look at the top of a good swing- thumbs up) and you rotated your hands and forearms to the left (that's how they look after release- thumbs up again as you complete your follow through.) That is how Surge, DJ, and players like Steve Stricker and JB Holms play without wrist cock and still have lots of lag and power release.