Using a Table to Understand Arm Rotation

Type "driver" and "pull" into the Search Box in the right hand column and you'll get lots of information, like this video: http://swingsurgeon.com/DailyV...

The most likely culprits are either misfit clubs and/or misalignment. Both can easily lead to you casting the club out across the aiming line when you transition, then you drag it back across the line and pull the ball dead left every time if you get the face square to the line the club is traveling on.

If your clubs weren't custom fit and built for you by a certified Swing Surgeon fitter, I'd recommend you start by measuring your wrist-to-floor length and the lengths of your clubs. Good chance the shafts are all too long, forcing you to cast them outside the line to have enough room to get them to the ball on a more vertical path. See this video from Doc Griffin: http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

Steve, I know exactly what you mean about the rotation. If i take a normal address position, then raise the club up to parallel to the ground directly in front of me, then turn until the club is over my toe line, it is in perfect position without any forearm rotation at all. I simply turn my upper body while keeping the club in front of me to the toe line. I do not honestly feel that my forearms have any rotation at all, nor is any needed to get to the toe line. I just have to turn my shoulders and upper torso while keeping the club in front of me. Sort of a one piece take away with the shoulders and upper body, but no forearm or wrist rotation is involved. From there it is straight up lift. At least that's the way it seems to me.

Regarding the takeaway, provided that it is agreed that after the limited turn the thumbs should be pointing vertically above the toeline at the top of the backswing does it really matter by what route  they get there?

I agree with Surge 100% that we need to control the amount of rotation. We have had several real good video blogs by Surge this past month about proper turn and controling the amount of rotation particularly with the right (or back) hand. My challenge is not only about not over doing the rotation but consistently getting the rotation (or release) to be timed right and happen at 6 oclock, then being able to go up more vertically not finishing too far left but facing the target. Remembering to simply swing up to the T finish really is the best and simplest formula for me.
    As far as the table illustration goes, my point was not about the amount of rotation of the hands(and arms) but that there is no wrist cock.  Rather it is rotation and that's what you'll see by the table drill. Arms stretched out on the table in a nuetral grip and just roll the handsover to the right and then roll them back over to te left. That's all that really happens in the BUS to the FUS. The key is limiting the amount of body turn and controling the amount of arm rotation to thumbs up on both sides.
Kevin in his comments below should not be confused. There is a snap at the bottom as we go through impact and that rotation happens in the less than one second of our downswing. It's called release.
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...

I couldn't agree more, my putting that round is was like a game of horse-shoes, problem is as everyone knows close doesn't count in the game of golf, lol. Several  bogeys and pars, a couple of birdies, with only one double, not too bad. And the double was just a sloppy lack of concentration for one hole. Focusing less on my ball striking and more on chipping and putting is definitely in order now. :)

I like the easy power that comes from the Surge swing and the backswing is really easy to get but I find it almost impossible to stop myself from over rotating my wrists on the downswing and hitting my shots with a closed club face, which is not something I would normally do.  Although I do "bump", I must obviously be starting the swing partly with my shoulders and getting my rear hand (I am a left hander - so my left hand) on top too quickly.  Its the momentum that seems to mess up my timing and, of course, it is a big problem with the driver if you do that.

I had to leave something for you. ;-)

T,

After trying to master, unsuccessfully, the transition/bump for the last 3/4 years, firstly with Ultimate Golf Swing (Tracy Reed) and then with PPGS (Surge), I think I am at last finding the 'space' after the BUS to execute the bump.  When I get it right, I find the FUS looks after itself and the back of my right hand is brushing my left ear before I know it.  Another benefit is that the shot is so much straighter and further. 

As D/head said in a post a fair while ago, with regard to the bump, 'Just do it!'

Also, in my set up, I am concentrating on pointing the shaft of all my clubs to my forward trouser (pants) pocket (at the same time squaring the club face to the target/shot line).   I then try to hold the grip throughout the BUS along the toe line and it is beginning to feel simple and uncomplicated.

Pedro  

Hi 

Are there any certified instructors in Australia? We need help too.

Cheers Paul

Hitting Your Driver
http://swingsurgeon.com/DailyV...

Amen to that Steve. I am getting more consistent getting vertical going back but the FUS happens so fast that it is easy to over rotate when I release through. As Surge said recently we need to work on controlling it.

PEDRO, 

Glad to hear you are getting the feel for it. Even though I know what to do, it it often hard to get the timing and tempo just right with everything, not to mention hitting all of the check points. I think I am probably like most others, still a work in progress, but at least I am progressing. What a marvelous and wonderful experience the game of golf is. Best of luck in your quest for a better game.

PMG

STEVE,

Excellent analogy. I would add, with your permissions. Not only do you Not Loose Power, you actually Gain Power with a properly started CONTROLLED acceleration, which can then PEAK, at or just after contact for maximum club head speed and distance.

If we start from the top full tilt, it will often result in an uncontrolled spin out, much like fully punching the gas pedal of your car will cause a spin out, rather than a controllable acceleration.

Seems the same for me. I have to work to not rotate and loose the perpendicular hand position. Just keep the club in front of me and my hands perpendicular, toe up to toe up with no rotation.

higgy Dick - Here. My wife and I played in the husband and wife club championship this week end, a two day event, and we came in second by one stroke. Not bad. Next year we will come in first if I can get Crystal to go verticle. Help Greg.
Dick H

@robertlfleck:disqus
I admire the work you do to contribute to these discussions, and I'm also grateful of the help you have advised me previously.
This is why I am reluctant to offer you a little advice, as your experience easily overpowers mine.
I have been watching your youtube videos, and have noticed that, particularly on the longer clubs, you have been coming near parallel on the backswing, and a little in the sacred burial ground. Do with this what you will as it probably works for you, but perhaps it is something for you to think about it you find you slice it from time to time?

You obviously know what drills will fix this, so i wont go into those details, but i hope it helps.

Happy golfing.

Today I had a lousy round after 3 solid easy ones.   The primary cause was a lack of rotation of my arms, again resulting in slices.  I am a little confused about Surge's rotation discussion.    When I apply Robert Meade's table rotation, it definitely makes perfect sense when it is applied at impact.   This is similar to a comment made by Robert F. a few days ago about feeling a snap at impact as the arms rotate.  Surge's view  seem  to apply if the rotation occurs during the middle of the forward or backward swing as it would take the club off our vertical path,  But, it seems if it is applied at the time of impact, that the arm rotation would have the hands turning over the dining table and producing the power and straight hit off impact.  Again, it seems tht I get lazy through the impact on my rotation.  Kevin McCarthy

I hear you John, those two oriental guys mess me up quite often. The Swing Rite training aid sold through Doc Griffins Golf Stop does help to control Mr Ti-ming and Mr Tem-po.

Golf Stop
http://tmgolf.sports.officeliv...

Full demonstration here.
http://www.swingrite.com/

I continue to see questions about instructors and fitters.  If you'll look at the tabs at the top, you'll see one called Golf Instruction.  Click on that tab to find certified fitters and instructors.

Also, in conjunction with the upcoming Surge's Big Vegas Weekend, we are opening up fittings to others that may be interested in getting a professional fitting while we are in the area.  If you are participating in the the tournament or have an interest in coming to Vegas for a fitting, contact me at the email address below.

jgriffin@docgriffigolf.com

Thanks Robert! I looked at the videos and expect alignment is part of the problem. My WTF is 37 inches. Clubs are standard I think: driver 45", 3 wood is 43.5", 5 and 7 wood are 42.5", and 5 iron is 38.5". Is that too long?  (I don't live close to a certified fitter.)

Hey Kevin,

As Surge says, the movement Robert M is describing is an exaggeration of the movement you actually want to make, but the feel of rotating your arms through the impact zone is there. It would probably help you to feel it and think about that happening right after your arms have dropped from their top-of-backswing position. The rotation of the arms, though, in the Surge Swing is only enough to keep the palms perpendicular to the ground as much as physically possible throughout the swing, whereas the table exercise rotates the arms all the way to parallel to the ground. The arms rotate in the Surge Swing because they are required to by the motion of the body and the lifting of the club.

Brian,

My opinion is probably not, However, Don has shown us the simplest and safest body friendly way to get there. The problem with taking a different route, is the possibility of detours and re-routes, (faults & problems) with the swing. It is hard to monitor the check points, when we travel a different route.

When a trust worthy source tells me the best route to take which will get me there with the fewest possibilities of pitfalls and problems in-route. I tend to listen to the experience he has. Taking the recommended route to the proper destination, can indeed have many benefits and avoid a lot of possible problems. Just my opinion.

PMG

Measure the clubs to be sure, but I'd recommend you start by choking up about an inch on all the woods and half an inch on the longer irons. If you're comfortable changing grips or have someone you trust to do it properly, you could mark your grip in quarter inch intervals and take five or ten swings at each successive length with either impact tape or just using a magic marker to put a dot on the ball about where your club will impact it to see where you're hitting the ball on the face. Find the length where you're getting the most center face impact and have the feeling that you can fully extend your arms through the ball. That'll give you a good sense of the optimum length for your driver, and you can work down the other clubs from there.

Callum, you seem to have confused me for somebody who thinks he's perfect. :)

Now, depending on the era of video you're looking at on my YouTube channel, you'll see all sorts of problems as I was sharing the video to show what I was looking at myself to try to fix those problems. Understanding the mechanics of the swing and getting ourselves to do them are often two different things. Yes, with the driver in particular I can get a bit long on the backswing. I've mentioned it before that I have to change my mindset and stop trying to reach back for that little extra (that's what the thought is that leads to the effect of getting the club too far around).

I will argue in the recent videos about getting into the SBG. Yes, my hands aren't perfectly perpendicular, and I'm working on that, but they never get past my ankles. The club head being at 11:20 rather than straight up at 12 is in a down-the-line view is acceptable (though not optimal).

Excellent video clip from one of my favorite golf movies. You are right, there is a lot of depth to that clip.

PMG

Steve, happy to see you got your round in, I awoke to rain from Lee and had it sporadically all day and now the core of the system is here. Looks like it's going to be a soggy couple of days. To bad in that regard, I was getting to like the crunchy sound of the grass. Four & three, I could love that. :)

I like the smaller controlled swing but having lots of trouble with longer clubs. I hit right-handed, and everything goes left - starts left and curves further left. Probably over-rotation but how do you stop doing it? Actually this happens with most clubs, but is much worse and uncontrollable with 5 and longer. I have pretty much given up on fairway woods lower than a 7, but need to be able to hit a driver.

Right now I am lost in a forest of swing thoughts. You almost never see Surge talking about longer clubs on the back porch. Could we have something on drivers?

I continue to see fitters with answers! Welcome back, Doc and I'm happy you had a great trip out to San Diego County.

To TeeOn13, Edroob and all other Surgites around the world

We need your help!

We are attempting to do a census of the entire Surge Nation this month so that we can accelerate our efforts to put instructors where we have good numbers of members. You can help yourselves by ensuring that we have your Postal/ZIP Code and Country of Residence in your email account file. To do this, simply look at the very bottom of any Swing Surgeon emaill  you've received since 09/01 for a link that says "Change Your Email Preferences". This may take all of 20 seconds to complete and you will have done your bit in helping us count how many members we have in each area. If we can approach local pros and show them that we have a committed base of members who are hungry for instruction it should speed up the process of adding to our network of certified instructors and fitters. It will also pave the way for development of other programs like  local virtual Swing Surgeon Golf Clubs with a voluntary online membership directory so you can find other Surgites to play with if you like.

Tom Jans
Director of Marketing

Ohio is rather gray and gloomy as well. We, (3 Ladies and 3 Gents) still have hopes for 9 holes around 4pm est, weather permitting.

Great comment Mr. Medley. I work to not rotate too and even rotate a little counterclockwise taking it back and up. Rolling the right hand to the right is totally confusing to me.

Paul, please scroll up to see my full answer on this subject to TeeOn13. Help us out by going to your Swing Surgeon email and updating your email information so that we can find all of our SN members Down Under. Don knows he has a strong following in Oz but you have a big country so we need your postal code so we can find out where exactly we have the density of membership to be able to proactively recruit instructors.

Tom Jans

Edroob......

My understanding is No.....

I live in Bartlett and am waiting fo that day.

In the meantime, video your swing, post on u tube.

The brotherhood will give you their valued thoughts.

T Medley, Robert M, Robert F, Steve Smith, R Sqd, Doc G and Amos are there to help with perspective.

Where do you live?

Phillip

Great description, 100% agrees with my experience with this swing. Funny you mention the "karate chop" concept on the FUS, the thought I have had is one of "chopping wood sideways" through the ball, as crazy as that sounds.
On the BUS, I have had a hard time limiting my forearm rotation naturally without thinking about it too much. As a result, a swing feel I've developed is one of feeling the weight of the club "leaning" down against my right (I'm a right-hander) index finger, specifically the inside of the middle knuckle, as I lift the club from parallel to the ground up to 12 oclock. This swing feel kind of acts like a governer preventing me from going into the SBG (or not too far anyway). When I feel the weight of the club that way I know I'm in the correct palms perpendicular position, then I just swing up with that karate chop feeling through the ball with no thought of any rotation through the ball.
I went out with those swing thoughts this past weekend and hit the ball pretty solidly and straight most of the round, firing an easy 82 (I'm a 13 handicapper) (without much putter success).

rt