Athletically Ready Arms

Sounds like you and I have both taken our folks to the emergency. How right youy are. IF you want to be seen quicker (or at all) in a busy ER. You better say my chest hurts.

Mike, I expected someone to respond to your post by now, but since no one has responded yet, here's my take on your question.  Your question about the angle between the shaft and your right forearm as indicated where your thumb is pointing comes under the topic of lag.  Judging from Don's and DJ's swinging through the bag, they seem to display an angle approaching 90 degrees at the top.  Conversations have taken place on past blogs about flexing the wrists at the top while still maintaining a flat left wrist. 

There isn't much on lag on the blogs, but if you go to YouTube and type in golf lag, you'll find a lot of videos.  From what these videos describe, lag contributes significantly to club head speed and distance.  If your shaft is aligned with your forearms by the time that your hands are just outside your trailing hip, you will have lost all or nearly all of any lag you may have had. 

I'm going out on a limb with these figures, but based on rough calculations, the difference could be in the range of 20%.  I plan to go to our local GolfTec and check out my calculations, swinging with zero lag and my normal amount of lag. 

Dick Lee:

   When it rains, it really pours does't it ?

    Added YOU and YOURS to the prayer list again.

    Amos

Terry, thanks for the input. I meant to get the swingrite long ago. After my fitting and having it clarified that I am indeed early and leaving too many yards on the tee(among other swings Im sure) I am fully convinced of the need to get it asap.

Steve

My invitatation got lost in the mail too.  Maybe it's a conspiracy.  Let me see, who's not here?  AHA...I'm blaming Jack.

Lynn42

Steve, talking about "Manic swings" I'm afraid when Doc sees mine late this month, it's going to remind him of another golfer from this fine state...Charles Barkley :)))

Dick:  I'm just getting caught up reading the last couple of blogs and want you to know our thoughts and prayers are with you and your extended family at this time.  May peace be with you and thank you for all you contribute to the blog.  Take care, my friend.  R2

It has to be marked.  All the heads have the lofts.  It's on the low part of the heel.  BTW, yours is 14*.

Robert F--thanks for the comments. I was referring to both the upswing when Don and DJ show an angle of about 90 degrees at the top between the shaft and the forearm and the downswing where the shaft is pointing to anywhere from about 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock, depending on the player, when the hands are just outside the trailing thigh.  From there, the swing has to get the club head to the ball.  In the simplified case where the player simply gets the club back to the address position, there would be an increase in the club head speed simply due to the release of the difference angle between these two positions, added on to the speed due to the arm swing and the bump, plus whatever turn if any. 

It seems from Mike's post that he was talking about resisting the change from the 110 degrees to the 90 degrees, since he wrote, "my arm and club stay aligned  like a string, rather that rotating like an L."  In this case, lag can't "just happen," and there would be no release, just a swing. 

I know from sports training clinics that different people have differnt connective tissue at the joints, which results in differences in how much lag can "just happen." 

The reason this has been a subject of interest to me is that I took six lessons before the local pro said anything about the fact that I was holding the club like Mike wrote about, with no lag and no release.  When I finally asked the pro about it, I was given this answer, "You're just an old man.  I though all you wanted to do was to knock the ball down the fairway for exercise.  I didn't know you wanted to compete."

Among the single digit handicappers I know, some say that lag is something to work on, and some say they ignore it, and both get the job done.  Both have plenty of lag, though. 

One thing I have noticed is when the feet/legs are together I can initiate more hip action in the swing to move the club instead of all a lot of arm action. As soon as I put the stance in set up this seems to imobilise my hips. My swings feels a lot more fluid when the feet and legs are together. I wished I could get the same feeling when I set up with the correct stance.   

Try walking 9 when it is over 100 degrees. Oh forgot it is a dry heat.

Dick

You and your family have my thoughts and prayers.  I pray you are all comforted by knowing he is in a better place.

Lynn42

It does become a pain when you have to drag another player along after they pass out. Hit the ball drag John, hit the ball drag John. It makes the round sooooo long.

Sounds like as you widen your stance, you have trouble maintaining the alignment relationship between feet, knees, hips, and shoulders. That or you're having trouble with the weight transfers, which are not an issue when the feet are together.

I watched a David Leadbetter The short game dvd this week and got instant positive results from it even without practice.
 I was struggling to get a consistent set up with my putter, now I set up with my left eye over the ball, putter held more in my palms and lightly, and with a 1-2 tempo making sure you release the ball as much as you swing back.  I always line a name or mark on the ball to the direction of the hole and line my putter to the ball mark, take a practice shot to feel distance then left eye over ball, square feet, knees, hips, shoulders, draw back 1 and release on 2 and hopefully drop in the hole. Also make sure you keep your eyes on the ball and don't be tempted to lift until the ball is well on its way or you hear it drop!
I haven't had time yet to practice my distances on the range so I get this ingrained which Is important.
A drill to make sure you don't lift your head is to put a coin under the ball and when the ball is struck keep your eyes on the coin.
I have started to stand behind the ball facing the target and do my practice swing here  without looking at the ball to get a feel of the swing I want to produce, this has helped.
I am 6-1 and have a standard length putter, with what I have said I have seen a marked improvement straight away and the following days.       

Yes, Robert F, I think that Surge help us out with a full-on video on lag. From what I read, there are two schools--the "function precedes form" and the "form preceds function" schools. I also know from my studies in sports psychology that both shools of thought can work, depending on the athletes being taught.

I do believe that the stories we read on the blog from people who lost distance when they converted to the swing are partially due to loss of lag. When I took a lesson from an Adams staff pro, he noticed that I was using a vertical swing, and the first thing he said that I would have to come down more vertically in order to get enough lag. In playing around with different down swings in slow motion, I have come to the conclusion that if a person comes down with his hands too far forward of a correct downswing, he/she cannot get enough lag; the wrists will resist it. I can also feel that if I bring the hands down properly but with the club head a little inside, the wrists are more supple and allow more lag.

Speaking of the Adams pro advising a steeper downswing, there are videos on the Internet that explain the wide-to-narrow backswing-to-downswing technique, where the narrowing of the downswing increases lag (Charles Howell III). Howell and Mickelson also demonstrate something interesting in their downswings--they lower the club horizontally behind the head before they pull the club down, narrowing the angle between the right arm and the shaft to increase lag. DJ doesn't do this--he seems to pull the club down along the axis of the shaft. But DJ must have very supple wrists and can develop more flex in his flat wrists. I concluded that he has softer connective tissue in the two videos he did when he explained how he points the inner part of both forearms to the sky on the take back. People like me who have tighter connective tissue can't do that.

One last note in this posting--I think that how much lag a golfer can handle depends on how athletic you are, just like how much back bend a power spiker can handle depends on how athletic he/she is.

Sorry for the length--lots on my mind about lag.

Steve Smith:

  Are you SURE that you are not a BULLDOG at heart? LOL

  THAT is my motto also!

  Amos

Looking forward to both. :)

Robert F:

    That pretty musch describes my golf swing -- it is either ?semi-relaxed" or "semi-tense" --- YOUR choice!

     Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

     Amos

This is not quite on topic, but I had one of those "Eureka" moments. I received my new issue of GOLF Magazine today and was perusing it while watching the Memorial Tournament, when a piece caught my attention. The article, "Accelerate," discusses how to increase swing speed. On page 110, in the lower left corner is a tip, "Suttie's Drill: Coil around a chair." I did not read the tip, but the picture is what got my attention - guy is straddling a chair with a really wide stance and his knees pressed against the sides of the chair.

My thought was that I have something better than that, which will let me take a Surge stance - narrow with wide knees. Fortunately, I have a portable, padded piano bench that is 9-1/2" wide, as is the base. I got it out and found that, with my knees touching the long sides of the bench, the center of my knees are exactly the same width as my shoulders. By putting my feet arches against the base and my knees against the sides, I get a perfect feel for the wide knees position.

In addition, I can shift to the pre-loaded, heavy right without my left knee kicking in, and I also get a good feel for the bump. I am going to use this extensively before hitting balls to reinforce the correct position. It even seems to be helping with the 70* turn.

There is also an interesting thing about "Acceleration Move No. 1." Mark Wilson says, "I can get to 100 degrees with my upper body while limiting my hip turn to 30 degrees." Gee, 100 minus 30 equals 70. Imagine that!

Kevin

I was watching some of your recent swings at your site.I really like you backswing position. Steve you are really vertical even past the 12 oclock line. That's my goal too.

Now that you mention it, that way. You are probably correct. Thanks.

Thanks, Surge. Great reminder that there's something between relaxed and tense.

Thanks Dan. I have a long ways to go as far as my swing. It was very reveiling how much the fitter soon understood about my swing characteristics after only one day.(actually spent 1 and 1/2 days with him.) As I mentioned to Terry, I plan on working on a later release to improve where my speed happens in the swing. I am going 'back to the drawing board' as they say. I can see several areas of my grip, set up and  swing that I'll be working on in the coming days and weeks. I am excited and look forward to the challenge with the new sticks that I'll have in about two weeks.

Thanks Kim. Tell him we're thinking about him.

You are in our prayers Dick. My KP's Dad pass peacefully to a better place than this disturbed place we all live in. Chin up old son and soldier on.We need you in this family too. God Bless all the caring in the Surge Nation.
Keep it vertical and straight in Oklahoma and where ever you are. A humble Dragonhead,Dalian,China.
Last session today with the Dr hopefully, then swing BUS to FUS and internalize it all again.

I'm just a couple hundred miles north of you guys. I walk 18 as often as I can, all summer long. I'm just sad that most of the courses here in Vegas force you to take a cart. And you'll appreciate what I tell people: just wait for the wind to blow 120 degrees in your face. It's like a convection oven and you're the pizza.

Surge Nation

I am headed off to church then to work at the course.  I will check in with you when I get home late this evening.

I hope all who are playing have great rounds.  I look forward to your after action reports.  I am not playing today,  just watching others play.

I want to leave you with this though.

The Perfect Shot

A guy stood over his tee shot for what seemed an eternity, looking up, looking down, measuring the distance, figuring the wind direction and speed, driving his partner nuts.

Finally his exasperated partner says, "What the heck is taking so long? Hit the darned ball!"

The guy answers, "My wife is up there watching me from the clubhouse. I want to make this a perfect shot."

"Give me a break! You don't stand a snowball's chance of hitting her from here."

Hey, it is golf related.

I appreciate you folks,
Dick

thanks, Robert, I was giving a tank erection class and just pulled it up to see he had withdrawn.
Boog

Keith, You're making steady progress. Thanks for the details. Have you got/seen Surges short game videos? They have helped me to the extent I've. Practiced the drills. Good stuff.

T Medley--I had to respond here to  your post that included the movie title "A Beautiful Mind."  I couldn't post in the two usual methods.  Thanks for the comments.  I posted two long notes to Robert F in reply to his posts on lag.  I hope you had a chance to read them.

What is the correct position for our right palm/hand at top of backswing up the tree? I am a right handed. I reviewed your videos and it was never emphasized. A tour pro said that the right palm/hand holding the club should be hinged at an angle as if holding a tray at the top. Can you clarify this, please?

Thanks B. and Robert.

I marked a birdie during my round today. Ended up doing a full 18. Had to sink a 7 foot put on a 185 par 3 to seal the deal. I tee'd off with the 6H I was having the hard draw problem with, remembered to adjust the the thumb position of my left hand to 12 O'clock and hit a beauty straight at the flag, landed about ten feet in front of the green, then rolled up to the hole. The put was a little tricky with a 12 inch left to right curve but all the time I spent working that coin toss drill that Surge saw Heath Slocum and his caddie working on at the Heritage finally paid off.

I even got to mark a one putt par one a 360 yard par 4.

golfol:
 
   I tend ot agree with you -- However please see my posting below. Carts allow some of us to play -- period!

   Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

   Amos

  

Maybe it's the Mayo!

Just had my first session with the pro at my local course. His

Good report Robert. It sounds like you had a blast and are on your way to a better set of clubs. I am still in the honeymoon stage with mine. Especially after Thursdays rounds.  Congrats.

I think you are probably correct. Thanks, I'm a little slow and thick headed at times, especially when I'm on that one track mind business.

You are so good!

You're right of course Lynn. I have more reason to buy it than ever. You'll be recieving an order from me soon.

That's a great thought Terry and I will work at the same thing. As you say,we think we're vertical and we're not. The video does'nt lie. The over the head idea is spot on to me. I'll be using that one. Like I  said, I am tired of fooling around and am going to use both the two swing trainers, the butt on the wall drill, the video and lots not practice to get it vertical and get my release and speed to happen at 6'oclock where I need it.

EMERGENCY ROOM?  Wish DJ a speedy recovery.  On the tour website it lists Bill Lunde and Watney as not feeling well.  Is there a bug going around?