Is Natural Golf Similar to the Peak Performance Golf Swing?

I also started my golf tuition via video with the Moe Norman, Graves Golf Academy material.  I  continued, with a certain amount of success, following this style until the end of 2010 when I found the PPGS (prior to the new location).  I must admit the PPGS is by far easier all round but still get some valuable information from Graves.  One thing I must say is that Todd and Tim do not recommend a palm grip or the ten-finger baseball grip.  Their set up with the grip is very similar to Surge's.  The only major difference is, as Surge said, in the width of stance (although not as wide as Moe in his later years), distance from the ball and ball placement in relation to the lead foot.  This ball placement as taught by Graves is the major reason for the club head/ ball relationship.

Regards

John Thompson

That does sound weird. I probably shouldn't have posted the number anyway, really didn't think about it before, just did a copy and paste.

Tom,

What is the daily dosage. Is it only one lozenges daily or more. Ebay, (cheapest place) Site does not say.

EDIT: Never mind, I found a site that recommends 2 to 3 a day, but no more than 6.

If you really look at CJ's swings he rotates his shoulders past 70* to 90*.  He rotates his hips more than 45* and he breaks the left knee in which allows the over rotation (by Surge's standard) of the hips.  He does have a lot of the same fundamentals and key points but he is the copier.  Don has been at this since 1988 that I know of.  CJ was still wet behind the ears at that point.

PMG

Just rewatched the Moe Norman swing and I think Surge was being tactful and very nice by mentioning several simularities. In watching the video you'll see that there are alot of disimularities too like the major hinging and a slight reverse tilt at the top. It worked for him and he was a great ball striker but it looks painful to me compared to my nearly 4 years with the PPGS.

http://moenormangolf.com/moe-s...

Got a second reply from Brad on the Enlow grips.

"Hello Terry,

You really can't compare Enlow Grips to anything currently sold. It is completely different. The most efficient way your hands can work is at least one-eight of an inch greater than resting hand, determined by standing and totally relaxing. Your hands will go to a certain place. Enlow Grips are slightly over one inch toward the club head, and slightly less than one inch at the butt end. If you are looking for a grip to decrease ball dispersion and increase club head speed and decrease shock and vibration. These are for you. PS we also give a lower handicap guarantee.
Thanks,
Brad
P.S. don't those specs sound comfortable too?

Sent from my iPhone "

EDIT;
After checking the butt dia of my jumbo's the Enlow, size wise, seem to be a reverse taper jumbo as for size.

Yes, you are correct that his irons are more vertical in that 2001 vid. It is true for many of us too that our swing is a little flkatter with lober clubs. It is cool to liston to and watch his discription of the swing and changes he made in those later years. What a character. Interesting and happy with hitting balls he was.

Doc, Steve, Etal,

Every industry has a lot of cross talk.  Sounds like he got the best info and made it his own.  Was still stunned by how many things were similar.  Thanks for the feedback.

Doc,

Let me take advantage of your posts, I just bought the SwingTech (still waiting on delivery).  I already own a SwingRight and a Matzie Assisit.  I am rebuilding my strength after Cancer this spring and looking for drills with these training aids.  Any suggestions?

CJ (no relation or affiliation to the other CJ, haha)

Played Natural Golf for several years without too much success.   Have been using PPGS for 1 1/2 years with a 7-8 shot drop in my handicap.   PPGS is a much easier swing and much better distance.   No question.

Hello fellow Surgeites. 
Being a proud Canadian, I had heard a lot about Moe Norman, growing up, and watched many of his videos on you-tube. As Don mentioned, "Natural golf" was fashioned after Moe's swing .... with the very wide stance. I discovered another of Moe's videos done in 2001 where he admits that he had been doing it all wrong for many years. In this new video his stance had narrowed, his hands are basically straight down below his chin and he stresses letting the arms do all the work. Go to you-tube and type in 'Moe Norman Private Clinic- Ball Striking Exhibition 2001. It is about one hour long but it is well worth the look and listen. I think he solidifies more of the things that Don talks about. Is it the PPGS? ... no ...  but probably the closest thing I have seen to it. Just a comment ... Yes, Moe Norman was "a different kind of duck" in his early years, but many of the greats called him one of the most consistent ball strikers in the history of the game. I truly believe that if Moe had been an American, his life story would have been made into a movie. There have been about 3 or 4 books written about him. He deserved more recognition than he received. In his later years Moe just enjoyed travelling around the USA, doing ball striking demonstrations and showing people how to keep the game "simple".Thomas Osgerby

That is a good price for those who already know they like them. Rather expensive for a trial test at 3 for $35.85 that's 11.95ea. I am surprised that they do not offer a single grip package in the Ebay sale at a discount for test purposes. If they are so sure you'll love them above all else once you try them, why not give the 1st one away, or at least 1/2 price.

At any rate I've already ordered one single grip on their site for the 11.95 with free S/H. I think that's costly enough for a test trial. Who knows, I may become a user and believer. I install my own with air, so I can switch it around to various clubs rather easily.

Thanks for all the info and what not's though, appreciate it, I do.

Seniorgolfer,

Checked out some of the reviews and even the official site. One question. Why does no body, Including the Official Site, not give the spec's on the grips? If the spec's are there, I am unable to find them. Do you have a site where the spec's are given, as to each end dia, internal dia, taper, length, weight, etc.... I am curious.

Thanks, I'll give it a try. I am just curious and very surprised that they would not list the spec's on the actual order site. If I get them I'll post them on the blog JIC anyone else is as interested as I. I'm probably the only analphite that feels a need to know the spec's though. I just made that word up, but I think it's a good one.

PMG

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Terry,
I highly recommend Jumbo Max grips to you and anyone else. Couple weeks ago I switched back to the Jumbo tour wraps by Golf Pride. Boy what a difference. After one round I went back to my J max. It's not just about less vibration and good for arthritus ect., but I simply play better with them. They are so thick that all other grips seem small. My fitter in San Mateo Cal. recommended I try them last year. Though I am still open to trying other grips I have to say these are great. I use the medium which feels like a small base ball bat! Once you try it you'll understand.

Dennis from Norfolk England,  I am 73 and just reduced my handicap to 18, my lowest ever.

I play very little, but find I can pick it up very quickly as I find the method easy to follow and remember.

Many thanks Surge.

Dennis.

Terry, I must be a analphite too. I am interested in these Enlow grips now but would like to know more about the specs. I currently use the Jumbo Max. Tough to use anything else now as all other grips feel tiny. The reverse taper is not a new idea but combined with the 'jumbo' concept is interesting.

I will order one (medium) and compare it with the Enlow. I really like my Jumbo Chamois though. I've had 4 other folks in the last month or so try mine and ask me to change their grips over to the Chamois Jumbo. One is the 90yr old on our Monday eve league. He usually shoots in the low 60's for 9, and had a 52 with them on his 1st round last night. He was tickled pink.

EDIT: WOW! and I thought the Enlow were too expensive! That would get costly with new grips every year or so.

Taking some helpful suppliments myself but just spent some time looking at Anatabloc. Freddie Couples uses it. Anyhow I do know that Flexcin is helping more than anything else I've tried. Always interested in researching supps, especially if they are on the natural side.

Thank you for the reply Robert. I will admit that Moe (with the new swing in the video link you posted ) reached more than normal with his woods, but if you watch his short irons, the arms hang straight down below his chin (as Don teaches). There seems to be 2 videos from the same practice session. One starts with him hitting wedge shots and the other starts with him hitting a fairway wood.. It was the wedge shot video that i was referring too .
Have a great day.

Yes, they have are not cheap. When you see how they're built and how sturdy they are you may understand the price better. They hold up well and likely would last you several seasons.

 In the mid-90's, at a national golf show, the head of Titleist told Moe "you have always played our balls and we appreciate it. I am going to authorized you being on our payroll at $5000.00 per month." And Titleist held true to their word until the day Moe died. Pretty classy.

I purchased the natural golf tapes long before PPGS, live in the same city as Todd Graves (known as "Little Moe") and took a lesson from his brother Tim Graves at the Graves Golf Academy. I can testify that PPGS is definitely the only way to go. My swing speed is easily 15 mph faster and the PPGS swing is much easier on my back. The natural wide golf wide stance restricts the hip rotation. It's mainly an all arms swing but the swing plane is much flatter and more rotational. You are encouraged to buy large grips and the lie angles on your clubs will need to be altered because of extending your arms in the stance. PPGS is vertical, doesn't require new clubs and is an answer to prayer in that I don't have to spend hours at the range trying to master complicated motions.

 I checked the price on line, looks like about 75 cents to a buck a day. I went off everything except RX Meds for 6 weeks. Just started back onto the sup's and vitamins about a week ago. Too soon to tell yet, but I didn't really notice a significant difference through the 6th week, unless it was so gradual that it just seemed that way. I'm on the diet again, so I'm sure that is also having an effect. My daughter came for a two week visit from Baltimore and had lost 95 lbs over the past year, almost a whole person. Anyway, she inspired me to get back on it.

We are in a severe weather warning now in N.E. Ohio. I hope we get some needed rain, but I could do without the severe part. I can't remember the last time we had any significant rain. That is very rare for Ohio this time of year.

I live in Kitchener Ontario .The golf course Moe learned to play golf at is a long par five from my house .Until his death I woluld see Moe on the putting green every evening .He was a strange man who was not comfortable around people .I tried to learn his swing 12 years ago and could not master it .It actually distroyed my golf game .Moe was autistic due to a childhood accident .He taught himself a swing that was 100 % repeatable to himself .That is why he was a phnominal ball striker .He was the rainman of golf .

Actually they're about the same as good Winn's and less than the Enlow's. It's just that the Enlow was free S/H and the 9.99 Jumbo Max is 6.99 S/H and since my only order item was one grip, it's all on that. Just a tad bit of a sticker shock for one grip.

It's kind of like the man seen dropping a twenty into the toilet. When asked why, he stated that he dropped a quarter in by accident, and no way was he sticking his hand into a toilet for just a quarter.

PMG

Some golf teacher's have the ball position just inside of the forward heel on all clubs. Moving the back foot closer to the front foot from the driver to wedge where there is but a few inches between heels for a nine or ten.
It looks like Surges ball is always in the middle. Which position is best?
Julian

Craigc
I did the same. Went thru the whole bit with the "Natural Golf" videos & even went to a couple of their personal lessons. I find the PPGS a more comfortable swing & easier on my back. Still trying to work out a couple of things but I'm sticking with it.

Here is what he sent me. I replied asking for a specific diameter, as to if they were about like main line Jumbo's or more like some of the giagantis arthritic types. No second reply as yet.

"Hello Terry,

The core size is a .560. They will fit any core size with the exception of Taylor bubble shafts. The gram weight is 150 grams, therefore we are back weighting all clubs. Weight to the grip end helps to get the head end to go faster. The grips are tapered to the butt end of the club, similar to a styrofoam coffee cup, for better control of the club face. You can call my cell @ (# removed) before 10 pm."
Thanks,
Brad

SENIORGOLFER:

Ditto here. I had to have the left one operated on in January, Osteoarthritis. They removed a portion of the joint closest to the wrist, took a small piece of tendon from my forearm and used it to wrap around each half of the joint and stitch it into place. It is gradually getting better after about  5 months . The doc said it will take up to a one year for full healing. I have my next follow up in Aug to make sure it is progressing properly. If this works out, I will probably have the right one done in December, so that my pocket deduction is already met.

I use a ten finger baseball grip and wrap the thumbs around instead of down the sides of the shaft. I find that any thing lost is made up with the right index finger placed in a partial to full trigger position. The trigger finger is something I began experimenting with after the surgery. It seems to make a considerable difference for me. 

EDIT: I checked out the Enlow grips, but cant find any specific specs, as to dia. just that they are oversized and reverse tappered. I also use a Jumbo grip and JIC cost is a factor, they are a wonderful soft grip at 1/3 the cost of the Enlow. Here is a link.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html...

Good luck

Hey Don and fellow Vertical Swingers,

By chance I saw CJ Goeks Perfect Connection web page.  There seams to be a lot of similarities.  Can you explain the differences between our vertical swing and theirs??

CJ (no relation, haha)

I would say neither option you mention is correct. You are incorrect about the position of the ball in PPGS. Surge appears to be in the middle in most videos because he is using the same club in most videos, probably a mid iron. Here are a couple good links for ball placement.
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

I would belive Todd Graves and his brother have strightened out the Natural Golf swing now,  Moe Norman (watch him on YouTube) did swing similer to what Todd Graves teaches, but Moe swing is different, even his grip if you watch several clips from different years. But in thier defense they do allow for some varience with each person, as PPGS does,.  Which is best, If you can swing your arms fast enough under control and want to play an arms swing then eather one of these tops.

I know that was when I ran out of the Flexcin for a month that I noticed the difference. Way more aches and pains returned! Now I have a revolving order yhat is automatic every 3 months. At 80.00 every 3 mo. I think it's more than worthy.

I'm 83 and was considering surgery for arthritic left thumb.  Started taking Anatabloc, and now, zero pain.  Same with a couple of other parts of my body.  Also dried up a persistent sinus problem.  Interesting, anecdotal, but it worked.  No side effects for me.

I went the same route as CraigC and Keltingp.  Watched Moe's tapes and subscribed to Natural Golf and the Graves boys.  Also took a bunch of lessons in Royal Palm Beach, Florida from Natural Golf's director of education.  I enjoyed the lessons and thought that the swing made sense, but it took a toll on my shoulders to a point where I needed arthroscopic surgery.  For the last two years I've been trying to change over to PPGS and got some instruction at this year's PPGS Spring Golf tournament.  So, all in all, after investing the same amount of time and effort on both swing systems I have to say that Surge's method is a lot easier on my body and my handicap dropped to 7 when I was playing a lot.  I also thought that Todd was spending a lot of instructional time marketing his swing-improvement gizmos and the feud between Natural Golf and Todd turned me off.  

I tried to call Brad at the 785# and the message said this# was no longer in service. Hmmmnnn......

Thanks Tom,

I already take a handful of pills each morning for the Arthritic joints, but I will look into the Anatabloc. I have not heard of it before.

Now for the rest of the story.  The person that set up the original PPGS website also worked with CJ and his crew in setting up their website.