Doc Griffin: Shaft Myths (Part 4)

 I can think of one, OK, maybe a couple or few. Where was I going with this anyway. Yea ,it feels greAT!!!!!!!

As an example, Doc, where is the kick point in the shaft of the driver you made for me? 

True Deb hot is hot. We are not real smart here though. We are playing golf in this anyway. They charge rediculous fees to play most courses in the early am hours except at muni at 5:30 am for my 9 before 8 for only $15.50. After 3pm it is only $9.00 to play 18 at muni (with our own pull carts)but at 108* they may as well pay us to play! We'll be out there either Thurday or Friday (if not both) anyhow. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

We hope to retire in a cool area like southern Oregon. Talk about God's country. Have you been to Oregon? When God was creating I think he came to the northwest and said, "I shall hang out here a bit longer" and so it was green. We are going in September on an 11 day road trip from Portland by car rental over to the coast and tool down some of the most amazing views you'll ever see. Then we'll cut over down south to Crater Lake and the Ashland- Medford area then up I-5  in the valley to Portland passing through towns like Eugene, ans Salem.
I looked into playing Bandan Dunes on the South coast but OMG they want like $275.00 to play a round of golf. Hell no!! There are plenty of quaint golf courses all around that we will play. We hope to play at least 4 different courses along the way. I lived on the north coast for 3 years 15 years ago. Loved it but I know Cindy will want less rain and that's why we are checking out the whole state, particularly southern Oregon. 

Yes, the epoxy can break down due to age and heat.

CJ,

Once more to the SEARCH BLOCK located on this page in the lower left column, I enter lag and bam! I get to see video lessons on Lag. How great is that, IF, BIG IF, folks would just start using it.
 
Here's 1,
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

Here's another,
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

And even a third on Wrist and Hands at impact
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

PMG, But seek and ye shall find. Come on folks the library was created for you, please learn to use the index cards, I mean the search block, much easier than index card boxes.

Terry, of course without the swing monitor and high tech tools that ones like Doc had I am among those guessing and hoping too when I try new shafts on my own. As I said in a related comment, at this point one of my resourses is the Muzuno club test they can do for me at Golf Galaxy. It gives you a computer generated suggestion of which shafts would be best for you.
They have you take three swings and then you get the swing speed, tempo,lag, release. from that they plug in your numbers and it recommends the shafts. My recomendations were,
 
Dynalite Gold XP 117gr
Project X 5.0 115gr
Graphite option- Project X 5.0 91gr (for irons)
       "          "            "       "  5.5 56gr. (for woods)

I have aready seen the really good price on the P X 5.0 steel shafts for my irons(e-bay) and plan on giving those a try with the sensicore and likely my Maltby KE heads.
As for the high,mid,low kick, much of it has to do with how agressive we are from the top and how early or late we release our lag. If we release it early and likely we are better off with a lower bend point. In my wifes case she has a swing speed in the mid 60's and very little load and or kick period so the low bend point and more over all flex help her get the ball up. Yes alot of this is in the trial and error category for 'assemblers' like us.
Doc mentioned several months ago that he has tested and dertermined the shaft characteristics of hundreds of shafts. We don't have that luxury. That is one reason I asked him the general question that he possibly won't answer and that is, "What shaft company (or companies) (make) does he generally find to be most consistent and reliable for quality and consistency?" Likely he would say 'it depends on.....'
But it would seem more logical that he has found some more reliable for specs and others he won't buy any more because they're crap. Hmmnnn....
Fun stuff to consider for us newby 'hacker' fitters. I am learning a ton from on line reviews and golf blogs (as far as shafts and components). All taken with agrain of salt (and a shot of tequella).
                          

T,

Thank you for explaining how to use the search engine once again. You show an enormous amount of patience educating the masses over and over again. Unfortunately some new folks will allows come along and will need to be educated as well. Perhaps Don could do a post a reccuring weekly video on how to navigate the website. but that would detract from the important golf info. LOL

PMG

 Yeah, the bump starts the club into the slot and a key for consistency is to make sure the shoulders stay shut until they square up at impact. I see most poor swings having the shoulders open up before impact and all manner of mayhem results from that.

I understand that Doc, and forgive my forward press into this area, BUT, there was a time before launch monitors, when shafts still had different kick points, What did the old timers do, Before all the high tech stuff to determine proper flexes and bend points etc.....

Wow, no wonder you have such a likeable twisted sense of humor. Didn't know you were so diverse T. I too have lived in diverse places, The Bahamas (4 years), New York City  (4 years), Indonesia ( Java 1 year), California ( twice), and Las Vegas where I was born and am now. The Bahamas was the ultimate. One, I was age 15-19 and two, it was the ledgendary 1970's.

edit;
Oh, and the north coast of Oregon (3 years).

Thank you,   any thoughts on some new clubs for me? 

Wish I was closer to you...

IM 5'4"  small built...

Guess I need to look at a new driver, the head came off last night.

Thanks so much,,,

marilyn

Robert,
That is why I live in Greenwood, SC. We can play 365  days a year and the tempture very, very seldom ever gets to 100* The humidity is normaly very acceptable.
Hal

I think I'm going to have to ask them about that next time I can make it over to Golf Galaxy.

 I have always though lag as a term is a bit misleading.

What I see in all great ball strikers is the ability to shift at the top of the BUS into a plane in which the club shaft aims at the ball. This is best seen from down the line and when the hands are near to hip high before the impact. Also at impact the shaft and back fore arm will be on the same plane.

This does vary between swings styles from upright as seen in the PPGS to the plane line of the shaft at address as best seen in Hogan and Garcia.

When achieved it eliminates vertical flexing of the shaft and lets the player "time" the horizontal flex to create the face angle of the shot desired.

Terry,
I have been reviewing a couple of the fitters books I have and reflecting on one of your questions (and mine) to Doc about 'how to' with limited resources and tech equiptment and your reference to the fitters of the past. Anyway, Tom Wishon wrote a book when he was still with Golfsmith intitled, "Practical Clubfitting Program" and it goes into detail about the major,medium and minimum importance of each fitting aspect and the relative importance of each in the effects on the swing as it results in distance,accuracy,trajectory (what Tiger calls 'traj') , backspin and feel. Great book that was obviously writen before super high tech radars and dopler systems of today that tell a fitter a-z in a few minutes. It was writen in 1996 and is more fitting for the less technologically supplied like you and me. Actually it was the latest cutting edge of it's time and everything in it seems to still quite adequately apply now.
I am refering specifically to your point of how did old time fitters figure out a golfers needs and how did they figure out which shaft. Frankly aside from judging all the measurable characteristics of each shaft with a deflection board and frequency vibraton they would just take basic measurements of the golfer, interview them about the state oftheir swing and goals and perhaps have them swing various clubs on hand (that fit most categories) and that along with a few other tests would lead to them making perhaps a driver and a 6 iron that they would then have them test and maybe take home for acouple of weeks for trial. Then they would tweek any changes before building the rest of the set.
Of course swing speed would be an important part of the testing and at that
time he recommended the Beltronics Swingmate which is one of the tools I am
considering (along with some other options) in the future.
To make a long story short, this is a great book that I think Doc
actually recommended to me month ago and it contains everything you need to
know to determine shaft needs including how to match swingweight and shaft
weight to swingspeeds and how to figure out a players tempo and downswing
acceleration (agressive, smooth, ect.).There is a tool that he mentions
called the 'determinator' that helps identify transition/load and whether a
golfer is a 'hitter' or a 'swinger' I got this book on Amozon for cheap
used/newlike and recommend it to any amature fitter wanting to gradually
learn, practice and grow as a 'real' fitter while not fully stocked with
every gadget needed. It is actually a very in depth book by Tom Wishon that
compliments my detailed but less how to specific, "Clubfitting and
performance" by Ralph Maltby. After reading most or all several times I
have been able to absorb and utilize maybe 20%. My head hurts! But it is a
neat hobbie for golf nuts like us.
note: Doc, forgive me for anything above that is incomplete or
inaccurate. I'm learning as you know :)

High.

Steve:

    You/ve been spying on me? (Slowing the club down to "ext to nothing")   LOL

    Amos

Mrilyn;

A loose head is one of the easiest things to repair, providing it is just loose, or off the shaft, and not a cracked shaft tip or hosel. They simply remove the head, clean it all up and re-epoxy it. Takes about 10min.

If you like the club, check a few price quotes from local golf stores and pro shops. I'm guessing about $25.00. I'd do it for free with friends and family and $15.00 for others.

 Come on, T, index cards are so much fun!

Not real proud of the heat but agree that our drier heat is a bit more comfortable than in areas with highertrajectory humidity.
It is not nearly as dry here as it was when I was a kid. More man made moisture. Lakes, golf courses, yards et. have raised our wet factor considerably. Still I' never move to Houston, Miami, or like areas Bama, Miss. on purpose:)
Likewise thousands wouldn't have moved here if not for the job opportunities. I've lived in nearly every extreme. Right now Southern Oregon is on our someday list.

If you call that being cranky, YOU'RE WRONG.

 Thanks,

I have a couple by Maltby from several years ago when I first started out, but cannot recall the Titles now. I may order the Wishon one you mention and the other if it's not one of the two I already have. I think mine are from about 20yrs ago though.

No need to apologize.  And, in that time before launch monitors, are we sure that there was an understanding of kick points?  Truth is, that advancement in shaft technology in the area of being able to control kick points is relatively new as well.  Now, as to "old timers", I can't say what they did as I wasn't around then!  HA HA  But, before there were launch monitors, it was trial and error and getting feel and what the player perceived as desire ball flight.  But we are talking about the days of the balata ball and trying to keep the ball down.  I hope this answers most of your questions but I think a lot of what you may be seeking there is no answer for as there was not the existence of the science at that time.

Robert :

    Same here in "Beautiful Downtown"  Chander (Phoeniz AZ area) -- 109 to possibly 113

     Amos

Where do you live?  Perhaps I'll plan one of my road trips in your area for next year.

T,

Thanks for the links.  I will cure my slice yet.

CJ

Steve:

   That is a major problem here -- This Valley of the DUn has at least 3x more residents thna God ever intended!!  And that is before the Winter "tourist/resotr" people come to visit
  
   Amos

The Maltby one is new last year. Its like a 700 page about everything golf fitter book. You can see reviews of it.Anyhow we never stop learning. Then once we finally start to get we find that there is yet more to know , learn and do. As of now know just enough to be dangerous, lol.

Clearly I have no trouble launching it with good trajectory. Since you built my driver based on a long-distance fitting, how did you know to use a higher kick point for me?

Steve:

    Having been raised in the South, and now living in the Phoeniz area, Up to about 100, I definitely prefer the "dry heat" -- but when it hits 103 and above, it is just plain HOT -- period.

    Amos 

Thank you, I will check pro shop today and see what they say or if they can fix it for me.  I do like my club, but want new ones next year!

Thanks so much,
marilyn

I was just in Denver this past week doing the mobile fittings and it was 104, 101, 101, and it was hot but nothing like 90* here with 70% humidity.  The dry head is a whole different ball game.

 Just looking over all the replies to the reply to my posting, wow. ;-) Maybe NBC should let me take over for Ann Curry.

For sure. Real simple. It's testing stall in the back right corner. They'll have you take 3 swings with a 6 iron and then give you the stats and recommendations. Be sure and have them right it all down. If you have time, test out several the easy attach club heads with the recommended shaft. I was between the 5.0 and 5.5 for my irons which is a stiffer/regular. Tried the 5.5 and the 6.0 and was best with the 5.0 in steel. It's fun and they don't really care if you buy ir not. Sales reps are all pretty cool. They know I frequently buy 'something' anyway! Lol:)

Well went to the basement in search of ancient golf books. Found my copy of Golf In The Kingdom, Thought I'd given that one away. I also found my two club building/assembly books. The Maltby one is from 1982, Golf Club Assembly Manual, Basic and Advanced Techniques.The other that I could not remember is, wait for it, The Golfsmith Practical Clubfitting Program, by Tom Wishon 1996 edition. It has an old book mark in it, about 3/4 ways through. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Don't know if you watch Feherty, but he had an interesting interview with Chubby Chandler last night, and one of the things Chubby wished was that the governing bodies hadn't allowed ball technology to advance the way it has. He liked the days of having to choose distance or control, rather than modern balls that offer both.

Robert:

    Partially for fun, partly to "escape the heat" I am going to spend almost 3 weeks with a friend in Port Orchid, WA ( across the Sound from Seattle).  Another piece of God's Country. 
 
     Golf cotsts a little more there ($40 vs $18 here)  but the company and the cool weather is worth it!

    Amos

Thanks, we live in Lincoln, Il center of the state!

Maybe pro shop can help me today too, will see! 

Thanks,

 I heard they were giving it to Jay!

Thanks for the info, is this a free test at Golf Galaxy or do they charge for it. WE don't have a golf Galaxy in Canton, but there is one a bit north in Akron. I think I might just check into the swing test.

Awesome!

Club head speed.  With a high club head speed you don't want a shaft that has a low kick point and launches the ball higher.  The speed of the club head "ignites" the spin and launches it on it's way.

Amen brother, God's country for sure

Hey Doc,

Can you explain more on a lagging shaft and releasing late or early?  (and still hitting the ball straight).   I have been using the vertical swing for a while and the release point seams neutral.  i.e. the hands, club head all arrive at the center of the stance at the ball at the same time. 

I am not sure how you could be lagging the club and still do the Surge Swing.

CJ

Hal and Terry,
Yes South or North Carolina would both be high on my list.
I lived in Orange county Cal. on the coast for a short time and have been to San Deigo many times.That entire stretch from Santa Barbra to San Diego is beautiful and super weather.  . Expensive yes. Ah, to dream though.

So, when you reach the top of your back swing are the hands, shaft, and head all in a straight line like they are at address?  Nope, don't think so.  So, the hands and arms start down as in "ringing" the church bell.  As they start down, they accelerate and the shaft bends (loads) and the head follows. As you approach point of impact the acceleration of the hands and arms diminishes and the shaft then bows forward and the straightening of the shaft speeds the head up.  This is release. This catches the head, shaft, and heads up to relatively the same straight line.  Hope this helps.

Shafts and spin and no comments yet? I'm shocked. :) Great information, Doc. Especially about how we need to understand that the way we load and release the shaft has to do with what shaft we need and what effects the shaft will have.

CJ, with a little creative use of your computer you can freeze frame or watch Don and DJ's swing just about a foot or so from impact. They have lots of lag and it's in a perfect position. Now understand a tiny nano second later it indeed does arrive at the ball on time and that lag is gone as that release happens. It's really (in my humble opinion) the most amazing and interesting part of the swing. That say 3 foot area between the before contact and just after. Oh it's possible with this swing. Most of us will never have it like the best do but it can happen with this swing. Yes with the Surge swing. Have a closer look at the master.