The Science Behind the Swing: Part 3

Well, if you read the whole thing, I think those are descriptors that only a mother would come up with. I think my boy is pretty fabulous. Your mother would probably say the same thing about you.

Hey fellow Buckeye, what area are you from. I live in the canton area and there is a Bruce around the Youngstown area. Cheers

Someday I will be. For now, I will just try to finish the rat race that is law school.

Simply Golf,

I have serious doubts as to whether you really understand the vertical swing. If you are changing the plane on which your arms move throughout the swing, you have missed the main part of the vertical swing. The arms, if you watch the movement of Surge's arms and hands in the down-the-line view, they stay on the same plane throughout the swing.The limited turn brings the club head back to that plan. The on-plane arm lift takes the club up to the top, again on plane. The forward upswing (FUS) is the same. The arms come down on plane, and then rotate through the impact area, bringing the club head back to square. The arms continue forward - on plane - up to the T-Finish, with the continued forearm rotation in the FUS bringing the club head to the toe-up position and on up.

Concentrating on the position of the club head gives the illusion of a two-plane swing. Look at the hands and arms to determine the plane. The Vertical in the swing is then obvious.

Keeping it Vertical in Alabama,
Kevin

Doc & Kevin, thanks to both for taking a moment to post your thoughts.
(Kevin, I probably understand the vertical elements and Surge swing more fully than you deduce. I'm pressing the edges here a bit on purpose. The Surge swing is way cool, but each body and brain resonates and connects with different elements in a different way.)

Jim Furyk is exhibit A.

I have something to ponder while watching the Masters.

Simply Golf

Cervesa

Nothing is wrong with being a great lawyer. There are a lot of them out there. I know several. But as Robert says above, you have to be able to sleep at night. My experience tells me that the ones who get involved with scum have a hard time staying clean. My father used to say "If you lay down with dogs enough, you will get up with fleas."

I don't like fleas. I will leave that to those who don't mind fleas.

Dick

Janet

As my 1st sgt in the Marine Corps used to say, we will all get all the rest we need when we are dead. Sleep is for people who don't play golf.

I have a friend who has two hair pieces that I built for him. He looks 30 years younger when he wears them. Who wouldn't want to look 30 years younger? I was thinking about fitting DJ with a hair piece made from this new material. If he looked 30 years younger, he could go play on a high school team and win the state championship. Who wouldn't want to do that.

I can't think of anything else to say on this topic, so I guess I should just write the same paragraph in a different order a few times.

Dick

Funny you should say that but I only said to my wife this evening that maybe I should video myself next time I go to the practice range. As for rotation, if anything I've been undercooking it, keeping the legs as still as possible, hence my feeling that I'm only using my arms. I've also found that the outward pressure tends to make my right knee hurt a lot after about 9 holes. Maybe I should just video it, put it up there on YouTube and see what you guys here can spot. As for the bump, I've never quite worked out what this is. Is it just a short move of the hips towards the target (along the line of alignment)?

The pro at the club was very dismissive of the whole idea of the Surge's swing. He said if you use a shorter swing and less rotation the ball can't go as far, and there's a reason all the tour pros hit the ball the way they do. Of course, with my best score so far being 104 (!) I don't feel I can really argue the case with him!!! That said, I like Surge's ideas because they seem to offer more control, and I just cannot get any control at all with the full rotational swing.

Multiple victories with it, Phil
One of our regulars was away & his spot was filled with a drongo, so it went straight past him
Bloke 2 is rather chubby & I thought his guts was going to beat him to death
Bloke 3 - major victory - the laughter was enough to make him 3 putt - sweet

I always post as a guest here so I don't have the ability to go back and edit, and believe me, there are things I've posted that I'd like to take back, if only because they made me look like an idiot. I'm sure there are things I've posted that I think are absolutely hilarious that no one else does. At least since I post as a guest, you can't see all of my comments conveniently located in one place. I figure it helps keep me a little more anonymous. (Although, with as much info as I've posted recently, anyone who even kind of knows me could spot me here.) (And now that i think about it, who gives a rat's behind whether I post here or not.)

And don't worry -- you definitely don't look like a dummy. At least here.

Roger,
Congrats on the ace. I've came close a couple of times since becoming a Surgeonite last year. The most impressive was on a 178 par 3. The ball missed the cup by an inch and ended up 2 feet from the flag. That was the first time I ever hit that green. Used a 4 hybrid.

The second one was a 150 yard shot with a 7 iron that left me with a 18 inch birdie put. That was my first Surge birdie hole ever.

Steve, I was just kidding. This is a golf blog. Golf, and the Surge's swing in particular, is being discussed. I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to.

And here's my 2 cents -- I was under the impression that it was a one piece takeaway to the mitt and then lift the arms.

Dean, rather than rotating your right arm up, try relaxing both right and left upper arms so the elbows droop a bit. The right inner elbow will point somewhere up around 11 or 11:30 and the left a little after 1 moving toward 2 on an imaginary clock in front of you, depending of course on your particular physical makeup and ability. I've found that slightly adjusting that left elbow position can actually help you shape ball flight, even without altering anything else in the swing. Give it a try and let us know if it works for you.

Doc

My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with facts.
Dick

T

How did your game go today coach? No matter the score, I hope you went out there and had some fun.

Dick

Albert,
If you are happy with what Paul is doing then stick with him - there is no compunction from this site for you to change.
However, if you have the time and inclination you might do yourself a favour by reading what inumerable people have written about their experiences of 'back problems' and the relief they have found from adopting Surges' swing. We cannot all be wrong so perhaps there is something in it!!
My own case is that 6 months ago I was on the point of giving up golf totally. My back was so bad that at times I had to be helped from my car after only a short journey.
Fortunately, in searching the web for some pain relief I came across a link to the old site.Thank goodness I did. I now play twice a week, WITHOUT PAIN, and whilst my handicap went out a little whilst I was trying to adopt to the new swing, I can say that my last three games have brought me back to my normal level. In fact today I was 1 under, and Boy did I enjoy it. BTW I'm 74 years old and now looking forward to many more years.

Yes, I posted the comment and the link. Here are the links again, and the reference to Harry Truman was actually Eisenhower as Robert's correction below mentions. Thanks Robert, another senior moment. He was said to keep his right elbow and inner forearm so close to his body, after a tip from Jones, that he would often have chaffing and blood, from rubbing against his heavy leather belt. On a similar note. Lee Trevino was asked one time, what his main thought was at the top of his backswing. He replied that he thinks about trying to put his right elbow into his front right pocket on the way down. Very similar to what Jones taught.

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...

Dick, You had to ask. Let me preface it by saying the four of us had a ton of fun. The recent Ohio weather has been very wet. We used coupons for free golf with paying the cart fee, so we played for $12, instead of the usual $28. However, it was cart path only due to wet and very sloppy, muddy, conditions. We had to play winter lift clean and place rules as every shot picked up mud. As always with cart path only, you take 2 or 3 clubs as you walk through the fairway to the other side, only to find out when you get there that you don't really have the club you need, so you make due with what you have. All in all for course conditions and the extra hassles I hit some pretty good shots and a lot of mediocre ones, but only a few really bad ones. Last year I was a deliberate mixture of PPGS and rotational. This round i tried with some success to keep it strictly PPGS, so it is indeed a work in progress for this year. When i did it right, my iron shots to the green were straight at the pin, distance is a different story, but direction was great. I also managed to hit some really good drives for me, using my Cleveland 16*. I decided to leave the 12* in the bag. I lost one ball to OB and one to the water within the first two holes, but none after that. I made four pars, no birdies, a ton of bogies and a few others, but I managed to keep my score in double digits rather than triple, so all in all, for the first time out, it was an enjoyably round and i managed to add a little learning in as well.

Robert, that doesn't look like a Serge 3/4 swing. You went parallel

Dafried, Somewhat in addition to what Jim Wile is saying, think about this: your arms are hanging straight down from your shoulders. Forget the club for a minute. If you're standing bent over a little from the waist, can you swing your arms more easily and faster by taking them from that straight up-and-down position to a 45* plane behind your back, or straight up around your neck? Just stand up and feel the difference.

The modern idea of the one plane swing came about in large part as a compensation for longer drivers, not as a logical extension of how the body works or the most effective way of increasing the speed of a club. If swinging on a flat plane around the body were really the best way to create speed, wouldn't you see baseball sluggers standing with the bat flat and level behind them while they wait for the pitch rather than almost vertical behind their heads where they can get the freest motion of their arms?

Phil NZ has a terrific site. One thing for sure I prefer in his swing over mine is the positions of his arms at address. He really gets the elbows relaxed and drooped in to a nice position. Mine still tend to be a bit too much elbows-out, particularly the left. He also has much less peripheral body motion in his swing. Very steady swinging the rock around the hand.

Phil

Sorry the day went like that for you. Great report, almost like being there. I guess days like that serve mostly to make us glad every day is not like that.

Thanks for your prayers. It means a lot.

Dick

Don - great video report
I have one word - Brilliant

For some reason, I missed Jack's comment about my criminal background. Given his eruditeness and articulateness, I'm really anxious to read it. Where is it?

Shhhhh! I am at work!

I'm very fortunate that my job, most of the time, is very low pressure and laid back. Sometimes I really have to kick it into gear, though, which I actually enjoy. One thing I've perfected is being able to nap while my eyes are open staring at a computer screen.

I was married to a lawyer for 20 years, have been in the legal biz myself for over 30, and also have a son in law school, first year, TJSL. I know how life is for you right now. I never get to see my kid anymore.

to Kevin:

> I would be back in the hospital where I was before I learned the Surge Swing.

The advice to move slightly into SBG after the mitt comes from Derek Hardy and causes no damage to your body. Try not to be so self-centered. I paid Derek $250 for this advice and others can use it (or not). You are not the only person in the world who has 2 eyes. Here in America we have something called the 1ST Amendment to out constitution. You are under no obligation to read what I write but others can use my advice and they won't go to the hospital as you claim. What you claimed is false.

Dick,

I think my record keeping is far in excess of Amos'. I have a digital micro recorder that I carry around and talk to myself about all the quirks of my swing LOL.

When I get home, I transcribe them into a journal that I have been keeping since I started the Surge Swing. Then, to track my handicap (since I do not currently belong to a club), I enter my scores into a spreadsheet that computes it according to the USGA handicap manual. If that is not enough, I also post my scores online at Stracka.com. Can you spell OCD? ;-P

Kevin

Robert

I had a similar experience. That is why I chose the law enforcement path.

Dick

BrianF - You sir are going in my Hall of Fame collection
Have you broken your age before - If so, how many times?
I am green with envy & tickled pink with admiration

Surge, you need to get off the deck and provide more demonstrations. Although I am very fond of the verticle swing, Paul Wilson is doing a terrific job providing tips on your former website.

Hello ETH,

Initially, I met with resistance from three different pros who watched me swing. They all tried to convince me that it is impossible to do what I was trying to do. The key to getting any of them to help me was to show them videos of Don and DJ swinging through the bag. A video of me looking like Charles Barkley did the trick. They showed me where I was off the mark and helped to correct my flaws. My swing now looks a lot more like Don's and a lot less like Charles Barkley's.

Don't get too discouraged by what your local pro has to say about your swing right now. Stick with it, you will see results, and so will the pro. Once you have made some significant progress, he will probably see that there is merit to the concept and be willing to help you to refine things. Try showing him the video of Don and DJ swinging through the bag. It will probably help to convince them that you are on the right track.

Here the links to view the swings on youtube

Don
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
DJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob

hahaha thats brilliant,

T: Just wanted you to know that Discus link you gave me seemed to work great. I was able to put in all the info and can now start to figure out all the cool things I can do. Thanks a bunch - I really appreciate you!!! R2

I saw your post after I posted mine. Yeah, that's a conflict of definition if you're saying that you cannot rotate your arms in a one-piece takeaway. Still, the main point I was arguing was Harry's assertion that Surge or DJ uses their wrists to lift the club. The arms move as a piece in the takeaway, lifting and rotating as the shoulders turn, but the wrists do not change.

Phil

Sure sounds like a tough day. I've played courses with bare spots on the greens. It's tough enough for me to read the break with grass, I have no idea how the read a dirt break...lol.
I guess we've all experienced concrete bunkers and I've found the best way out in that case is to try chipping rather than a normal bunker shot.

I'd say shooting 45 under those conditions was pretty good. There is a bright side to all of this though. The golf gods owe you one and it can only get better. I've found something that works for me when I'm having a bad round. If the front 9 is really bad I take the positive approach by thinking, ok, it makes it just that much easier to to shoot better on the back 9 and leave with a positive feeling at the end of the round.

The good thing about a bad round...It makes the next good round feel that much better. Hang in there.

Lynn42

Roger

Welcome to the club pal. That is a feeling few things in life can match.

You are proof that the Surge Swing will work for you, if you work at it.

Congrats,
Dick

Thanks, Robert F

You are correct: lifting too high can be an issue. BTW, that actually part of how my left
shoulder was originally injured.

Don may need an alternate word for "vertical", which means...vertical...straight up, correct?
If Don does not vertical, another word would be helpful.

CJ Goecks teaches a 3/4 turn, limited backswing that is BOTH similar and different
from the Surge. CJ's is NOT a rotational swing, and I've found some of CJ's thoughts helpful.

But CJ also teaches the wrists must be cocked and that you must hit down on the ball.
CJ's athletically ready stance (at address) is more rounded than the Surges.
Pre-loaded right (Surge) vs dropped right hip (CJ), I'm not sure what the
distinction is.

Simply Golf

Brian, Well said. It is better to play at a higher score PAIN FREE, than to play at a lower score, IN PAIN, and need two days to recuperate after every round.

Hello all, I just posted a long relevant comment on the http://www.waynedefrancesco.co... site in the PPGS exam he did there. I am avguy there, and several other places on the Web!

Just to reiterate, I think this swing is indeed better for back pain issue players, like me. But, I do believe there is increased emphasis of wear 'n tear on your front shoulder rotator cuff area that needs caution and prep in the name of strength and stretching. You have made a fulcrum emphasis in this body part if you are maintaining a stable lower body on the shorter turn with your lift action up to the the back or away from the ball ear.

To get ready for my summer of over 100 deg. playing days, I invested in the Swing Rite, and use it often inside aligning myself very square with the help of my 12-in. floor tile lines. I've gone beyond my normal Total Gym workout using a pair of restistance grips to increase hand & forearm power. I am committed into finally dropping my 10-finger two-hands grip in favor of an interlock.

Like I mentioned on the wayne d. site - please get the one-day long school in the Phoenix area. I just can't quite foot the time, lodging, meals & gas over the class fees to make it out to the CA school, regards. Jim in Mesa.

You are a very brave man
If I had a Rolls Royce, I wouldn't let a monkey drive it

Issue is not overswing and parallel or not. The real issue is what logic defends the use of a verticle slot swing rather than continuing to rotate the club onthe plane it starts on as it moves away from the ball. the rotational swingers logic is that since the club starts more or less 45 degrees from the ground - why not continue rotating it on that path - rather than as surge dj do - take it to the top in a verticle slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Kevin,

Try this, and you should be able to improve your performance when changing clubs.
1. Stand an extra six inches away from the ball.
2. Assume your posture, paying attention to your accordian setup and the position of your hands in relation to your chin/mouth. Your arms should hang without being extended toward the ball.
3. Check your grip and your hands/clubhead position in relation to the ball position.
4. Gradually inch your feet closer to the target line until the clubhead is behind the ball.

Your setup should now be correct and you should be ready to hit the ball.

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob

Amos

I don't care what they want to call it, it was a three on one tag team match.

I can't wait till next week to see what they come up with.

Dick

Phil

Happy birthday. They just get sweeter as they pass, although they do seem to pass quicker and quicker. They used to pass for me like watching telephone poles as I am driving. Now they pass like the little white lines between the lanes on the highway.

Dick

Albert, I'm not trying to be picky here but what was your point?
You have somehow joined three unrelated issues to make no point at all