Today I'm going to address a question that I get quite often. Cecil Howell says he's got no problem swinging vertical with his shorter irons, but he struggles with the longer irons and woods. However, this shouldn't be the case because the ball has no idea what club he's got in his hands. But, you do have to put a little more physical and mental energy into swinging vertical with the longer clubs because of the flatter lie angles of each club.
Don, thanks for all the great lessons, most certainly helping. My question is I have no problem with the vertical swing with shorter irons, say seven iron down. It's when I get the longer clubs I can't seem to get the same results with the vertical swing. I have a tendency to get into the sacred burial ground and end up drawing or hooking the ball too much. Any suggestions would be helpful!
Cecil, you're among a large number of Surgites who have this troubling dilemma. Yet, because you say you've got no problem swinging vertical with your shorter irons, you really shouldn't have any trouble with the long irons. It just takes a little more focus. To begin, let's take a look at why this happens in the first place.
The most vertical lie angled club in the bag is the sand wedge because it's the shortest. To see the lie angle, you've got to have the center of the club on the ground. The lie angle is the angle from the shaft to the ground. As you can see in the video, when i sole the 7 iron in the middle, the lie angle is a tweak flatter than the sand wedge. The basic rule of thumb is that for every half inch that the club is longer, the lie anlge should be one degree flatter. But, does the club being flatter and longer change the swing?
Like I've said, the ball doesn't know that you've changed clubs but your body knows and perhaps more importantly, your mind knows. So, your hands have got to become more engaged in the swing, especially your lower hand (right hand for righties). Engage your lower hand because it's your dominant hand and this is what's going to stop you from swinging deep and flat with the long clubs. No matter what club I'm hitting though, I start by activating the muscles in my lower hand by lifting up. You don't overextend because that pulls the whole body. Instead, you have to lift and that happens from the shoulders. The longer the club gets the more you need to make the proper amount of turn and lift. You don't want to be tucking or getting deep in the sacred burial gound as Cecil has stated.
I think it's worth repeating that you have to engage these lifting muscles when you have longer clubs. You must engage both hands, but especially the bottom hand because it will stop the turn. So, swinging the longer clubs can be a bit more challenging, but that just means you have to concentrate more on it. You've got to keep the club as vertical as you can.
Basically, you better engage those hands and have good grip pressure otherwise you've got no shot at keeping the long clubs vertical. Think vertical and you'll swing more vertically! Trust me, it helps!
The Surge
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Keeping it vertical
My recent use of my weighted grip trainer to warm up prior to swinging clubs has helped me to swing up instead of around through and after impact. Had one swing session today so far and will have another on finishing this. Loved the video Surge. No pulling punches, nor should there have been. I am now swinging up instead of slightly around at the end of my swing. A huge leap forward with the woods. Irons like Cecil Howell not a problem until I get to the longer woods. One thing I noted some time ago is: When swinging the shorter irons, it is easy to forget about the bump and still end up with a more than acceptable shot. Having said that, when you do it right, the shots go from acceptable to breathtaking, both in distance and accuracy.
Tomorrow will be proof of the pudding day again. Every time I watch a video of Surge's, even if it is an area I am not having problems with, I see something else of value. Every time : - ) Keep hitting them UP and UP whatever you do. A grateful DH in Sunny NZ
Thanks Surge ...
Thanks Surge for covering this and Cecil for asking the question, it has been in my mind for a while as well. Am hitting 7 and below quite solid, but this wanes at the 4 and 3 recently.
My question is the driver, since it is a bit too long anyway from what I have been reading, is it harder to swing vertically if the club is longer? My instinct says yes. That may be another good reason to shorten the driver a bit.
Also, how far up should the hands go during the PP golf swing? Lately I have been keeping them below the shoulders throughout and have been realizing more accuracy and power it seems. I kinda got this from watching baseball and the short, compact, powerful swings of some of the power hitters. Low hands, quick swing, and a lot of power. Is it even a good idea to compare golf & baseball at that level?
Down the middle,
Jon
Vertical Swing
Jon: You are sooo right - many of us have had drivers that are just too long! Before finding the PPGS site, I was trying to play a 46", 460 cc driver. Not a pretty picture! Thanks to Doc Griffin's long-distance fitting program, I now play a 43", 350cc driver that fits me perfectly and swings easily, especially with the vertical swing. As Don explained in this video, the longer clubs are a little harder to swing vertically; that is why the lower hand is so vital to keep the swing in check and out of the SGB. Before you whack a few inches off your driver, try putting a rubber band on the grip and choking down about 1/2 inch at a time until you find a point where your ball striking is more consistent; then mark that spot with the band. You can either play with the band in place, or get the club cut to that length and properly reweighted. Concerning your second question, my preference for hand-height for the PPGS is about ear-height in the BUS and the FUS. As long as you stay within PPGS parameters, and out of the SGB, you should be fine. Hit 'em straight! R2
Thanks for the tip ..
Thanks R2 - I'll try that rubber band idea on my driver and likely my 3W. I just added 4 swing weights (2 pieces of lead tape) to the driver, and shortening the grip may help it feel a bit less heavy (yeah I know, take some off) It may make for an interesting combo.
The driver was also harder to keep vertical with the additional weight because any thing off line is exaggerated. But, at least I can feel the head now and it seems like a nice solid THUNK rather than a TINK if you know what I mean.
Baseball
I use baseball swing principles all of the time in golf. Whenever I start to go bad getting back to the basics of a good baseball swing straightens me out.
Of course there are two HUGE caveats:
1. You have to have a good baseball swing to begin with (my "baseball swing" is a WAY better golf swing than my golf swing).
2. (Biggest problem of all). In baseball at impact the hands are left palm down/right palm up. The only way to do that in golf is if you used an extremely strong grip with both hands.
Number 2 has always been a huge dilema for me. Luckily for most people it's not quite that big a problem because very few people are crazy enough to have had a batting cage and pitching machine in the back yard and hit about 500 to 1000 balls a day for years and years like I did.
Thanks Steve
Steve - thanks for the insight. Sounds like you are quite the hitter. I'll keep that in mind about the position of the hands. My baseball swing likely has deteriorated in the last 33 years so I won't use that as a standard :)
But, I was a very good bowler, and my goal is to be as comfortable on the golf course as I was at the alley. I knew every shot and what to do to make it. Still working on getting the swing principles down and also course management.
Enjoy the nicer weather for a few days!
Jon
Hitting and Bowling
I love to hit a baseball.
Only did just enough bowling to figure out I wasn't any good at it. Ha ha!
My wife talked me into bowling on her team one time (she was pretty good) but I didn't have any consistency at all. One time might be 120 and the next might be 170. It usually depended on whether I could find a ball in the rack that fit my hand right. Never had one of my own. ;-)
Bowling and the FUS
I would love to hear Surge's thoughts on this, but I've always thought that the release and follow through in bowling, the way the right arm rotates through and comes up to the side of the head by the left ear, is very similar to the release and follow through in a PPGS golf swing. My time as a pretty good bowler in my youth (185 average) is part of why I have a much stronger right-hand action than many golfers, I'm sure. Trying to get the left leg action from my bowling days back into my golf swing. In bowling I could keep the left knee flexed, but I've been straightening it too much in my golf swing, snapping me around a bit. That stupid watching rotational instruction in my youth getting in the way of a good natural swing. :)
Nice point ...
Robert - thanks for making this point. There is indeed a similarity and I'll look for it more next time I go out. Even after all this time I can still picture myself in a bowling delivery easier than a golf swing. Had a 217 average in my USN days, waned to around 200 about 15 years ago, and it has been golf for me ever since. Made a choice in that direction and happy since I wanted to get outdoors.
And, like in any sport, having the right equipment is helpful at all levels. Really appreciate the information from Doc Griffin in this area and of course Surge showing us how to put it to use.
Vertical Swing
Surge: Just a GREAT video! I love your explanation and the passion and enthusiasm with which you deliver the message - you really drive the point home! I'm constantly learning and understand the swing much better with each practice session. It truely is a very simple, natural, body-friendly swing. Thank you for everything you do and for your desire to help each of us become better golfers! R2
Keep it vertical
Really enjoyed Surges enthusiasm and zeal for this subject. Cindy watched it with me as she often does. Don loves this game so much and has such an irresistible passion in the way he pours his heart into his lessons. Great stuff. Yes we need to be reminded of the important part the right hand has in helping us get vertical on the back swing and control vertical in the follow through too. I have always had more challenge with a vertical follow through than in the back swing. Still working on it :)
Today was a much needed day off from work so allowing my right shoulder to rest today rather than play a round of golf I accompanied Cindy to the range as we worked on her game. As of late our focus is helping her learn to get her right arm into a better set up position. With the 'master set up' in mind we revamped her grip which had gradually gotten her hands into a weak position. Her right hand was a one knuckle showing with the v at her chin. Then her right hand was on top with that v at her right cheek. Basically both hands were rotated too far left on the grip. Also the grip was too much in her palms. That felt strong to her but was not in reality. We turned her left hand to the right and got the v more between her right ear and shoulder and more in the fingers. Then the right hand settled snugly over that left thumb and likewise aimed at the between ear and shoulder point. Wow what a difference. Her back arm and shoulder then was then lower and back. This in affect squared her upper body and shoulders which had been aimed a bit left of her lower body and foot line. With everything now squared up and her arms and hands in a much more powerful position she hit some of the longest and highest irons I have ever seen her hit. It was a great breakthrough and time well spent.
Amazing how often the best adjustments are just set up fundamentals.
We're enjoying some perfect weather in Las Vegas. 80* and sunny. Hope our friends are finding a way to take care in the northeast USA. They're in ur thoughts.
PS. DJ tees off at 7:15 am on the Magnolia Course tomorrow. It looks like he's playing with Lee Janzen. Hope Deej plays well and slips into the top 125. Let's all cheer for him to get it done!
Dreaded S word.
No golf here, Robert, as we got about 6 inches of the white stuff from the n'oreaster. Your practice session with Cindy made me smile. I mentioned my trip to buy a glove and balls the other day and the resulting hour spent hitting balls and explaining the PPGS to the salesman.
Picture me, the hacker, explaining and doing my best impersonation of Surge. In the words of Dick Lee, "now, that's funny, I don't care who you are."
He actually learned pretty quickly and liked the swing. Now that means he's either a quick study or I'm a much better instructor than player. I watched him hit a few and made some corrections. When we were finished he was really making solid contact and thanked me. I told him I wouldn't send him a bill. And before you ask, I didn't get a discount on the gloves and balls.
Ok, back to shoveling and getting my instructor's ego back in check. ;0))
Send me your weather, Robert and I hope your aches and pains get better soon.
Keeping my snow shovel vertical in NJ.
Quite about the snow
Supposed to be in the 60's here this weekend hope to get a couple of rounds in have not touched a club for a couple of weeks.
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verical swing with longer club
Don , I believe the critical issue as we use longer clubs is the angle of the wrist in the set up position - more straight down with shorter clubs and more acute as we set up with longer clubs.
I suggest the key issue is to maintain that angle with firm hands /wrists as we lift our arms vertically.
There is physically no other way to maintain a vertical swing as we lengthen the club other than change the wrist angle.
Perhaps I am simply stating the obvious , but no one ever seems to mention this. !
Could you please comment
Short vs. Long clubs
I have mentioned it plenty of times but it has always been the elephant in the room.
At address both arms are hanging relatively straight down and the shaft is angled from the right forearm. The longer the club, the more the angle. Some have the idea that they are going to return to that position at impact. Ain't happening (with any power at all) except on the shortest clubs.
What actually happens for the skilled player (pretty much leaves me out) is that during the bump and subsequent fall of the arms the club lays off from vertical allowing the shaft to be in position to come into the ball in line with the right forearm but (unlike at address) the right elbow is much closer the body and the right forearm is now in line from the middle of the body to the ball.
It is absolutely no different from a forehand shot in tennis. You would never hit a shot with the right forearm pointing down vertically and the racket angling out away from the forearm.
So what most of we players of little golf skill end up doing is either cheating at address and extending our arms a little or opening our front shoulder at impact or pulling up at impact or some combination of the three. What we end up with is the shaft in line with the left forearm at impact instead of the left forearm being pretty much vertical and the right forearm angled toward the ball and the shaft in line with the right forearm.
Without the club laying off to start the FUS is would be impossible to swing the longer clubs and have the left forearm vertical at impact.
If there is any one snapshot during a swing that would tell if a player is very good or not it would be at impact. Almost no bad players would ever have the right upper arm vertical, right forearm angled toward the ball, the shaft in line with the right forearm, and the spine angle still maintained. A snapshot of DJ at impact would be just like that. One of Surge would be close to that. One of most of the rest of us wouldn't even be close.
left handed but play golf right handed
having watched that video i know feel i am at a bit of a disadvantage. i am left handed in everything but play golf right handed.so my right hand is actually my weak hand but Don stresses it is the right hand which is more important, awkward! and not sure i can do anything about it.
Maybe but......
Actually Surge usually says that both hands are of equal importance over all and we should seek equal grip pressure and involvement of both during the swing.
His point is that classically, many other instructors have said the forward hand (left for righties) should dominate and guide the swing while the right remains more passive perhaps only adding more hit or power through impact. Surges disagrees.
His point too is that again the right is equally important throughout the swing but particularly needed to get vertical and avoid the sacred burial ground on both ends of the swing. This helps keep our swing and results "in the bowling alley"
Here's another daily on it;
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/hands%E2%80%A6major-players-swing
Using the Right Hand
Great video Surge! It clarified a lot of things for me regarding the right hand's function in the swing. Now I know why I've always hit better shots when thinking about the right hand dominating/leading the BUS. It helps the player have enough grip pressure with the right hand, keeps us out of the sacred burial ground, gives us a better feeling of vertical and encourages more lift because the right arm is more active (not just dead weight). I think that a dominant right side also encourages better extension of the left arm during the BUS.