Practice Mode vs. Play Mode

 Shaft plane, now the club head orbit. A couple of suggestions to play with;

The right elbow (back) path. This is a primary controller of the club head orbit. A key point is how it tucks into the body and right hip at the slot and into impact. DJ does this very tightly and despite the steep angle from the top the shaft from the slot to impact is very close to shaft angle at address. If he wore his phone on said hip it would likely get crushed or cause contusions to the elbow.

The club head orbit. The difference in the 3 swings on your videos show a lot of difference on the BUS and at the top. The bump then drops the club down into a similar slot.

The "pyramid" at the transition between the BUS and the bump starting the FUS. This is the angle between the fore arms at the top. Don and DJ  both have the hands centered between the arms with the club shaft parallel to the toe line.

The position of the hands/butt end at the end of the BUS as seen from the face on view. From a physics point of view the hands at shoulder height are at the farthest from the target and give the simplest arm throw to the target linearly speaking.

Finally the path or orbit of the butt end of the club from address to impact. From the top a lot of good players move slightly over the top into a steeper angle to offset the club head's need to drop back into the SBG. Not necessarily a fault and it does lead to a steeper shaft angle at impact.

A lot of stuff to look at on video. I wouldn't even think about trying to address more than one thing at a time in a lesson, just to tackle the most egregious move that prevents making a PPGS swing.

Surge,
On target as usual. Certainly can be applied to yesterdays discussion about swinging up.
For several weeks while working at "getting" this swing I focused only on feeling like I'm swinging up from the top. Likewise it was the finish that I keyed on. As you've said and DJ emphasised in one your best father son teaching videos some three years ago, it's in the forward and finish where the ball is struck and goes. KISS principal. No dots needed.
Lately my focus has been keeing my swing "neat" and only 3/4's. Just be square and take dead aim with good alignment.
Thanks for keeping us on track Don.
PMG

 Hi Doc,
Like I said, it is neat, what I am learning in golf college.  Club design is one of my favorite subjects, and I am always looking for things which make it easier to understand some of the concepts of club design which are often discussed on the blog.  

Here is a link to a great article by Ralph Maltby which will help many to understand the concept of MOI and how it affects club design. 

http://www.ralphmaltby.com/des...

I gave your question some thought, as to my choice of 14 inch ounces as an MOI which works well with a low vcog.  I used the word "forgiving" and probably should have used the word "playable" instead. 

The low vcog will help the player who needs help to get the ball airborne.  Whereas the MOI expresses the movement of mass to the perimeter of the club head.  As  MOI increases, the ability to close the club face through the impact zone becomes more difficult, but the face does not deflect as much on off center hits. 

If the MOI is lower, the club face will close more easily, but off center hits will produce poorer results.  As MOI increases, the ability to close the club face through impact becomes more difficult, but off center hits will have better results.  (Forgiveness?) 

While studying The Maltby Playability Factor, it occurred to me that 14 inch ounces seemed to be a happy medium where the ability to close the club face and still benefit on off center hits seemed to balance.

Am I on the right track?  :0)

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob  

 

I'm going to ask you a question and I want you to spend some time considering your answer before just giving me what the club manufacturers have espoused for years.  I have addressed this on occasion. What is a forgiving club head design?  In a golf club, what does being "forgiving" mean? How much difference is there in a "forgiving" club to a non "forgiving" club? There is one primary feature that makes a club playable or not for the golfer, what is it?  The deep low center of gravity cavity back clubs have one primary benefit, what is it?  Have some fun with this and it's time to grow in your club building experience.

A club designed with the shaft coming into the middle of the face, imagine that, and how easy it would be to square it up at impact.

It surprizes me how many folks feel that way about a club with the shaft in the middle of the face, Yet, the one club which can be used with that design, the putter, very few people even try.

From the first time I tried a center shafted putter I wondered why everyone didn't use one, especially the newer face balanced models. It is so much easier to square it up at impact, yet it remains in the minorty usage over heel shafted designs. I know everyone has their own reasons, and all my buddies have told me their's, but it still seems ill-logical.

Imagine, a club with the shaft in the center of the face. Easier to square up at impact, and folks still prefer a heel shafted design. 

Apparently in certain parts of England I could have that problem (share a name with a famous footballer).

 There is a way to roll the ball so the bumps and such on the greens will not bounce the ball off line very easily. Simply put; strike the putt at the bottom on the stroke, on-on-on with no side spin and 3-4 degrees of loft.

Been rolling the rock like that for a long, long time with great success and it doesn't matter what putter is used. Normal, belly or broom handle.

 What's a real golf course?
I play public courses and when the parking lot is full we usually are done in 4 - 4 1/2 hours which is normal.

Golf is one of nice game of sports which is good for health and fitness . I really like it very much . But one thing i would share is that golf is not easy to play because you need a proper technique to play it and if you have not that then you can not achieve the target . 

Mike,
This may sound crazy but I think we can really be different from one day to the next in how solid and powerful (or not) we hit the ball.Some days it's like an out of body experience and I wonder if I am the same golfer at all! The heat and other conditions can affect our distance too for a certainty. There are some days though where we are 'on' and can take less club and get there and other days we are 'weak' or 'off' and need an extra club on the same shot. I do know that over all we can get in the ball park of consistency over time.
You are playing with new sticks and so it may take a while to calibrate your real averages and gaps. Stick with it.

Really cool stuff Steve.I too have studied this at great depth for several years. My swing is closer to yours than Either Don's or DJ's.
The biggest difference is the important one in my estimation of the huge difference between a pro and an average amature (not you, me! lol) and that is two basic but very fundamental and great skills.
 
One: the ability to perform the lateral bump ( key to dropping in).
Two: the ability to then create and maintain lag till just before impact and then unload with that seemingly effortless release through the ball. (for seemingly effortless think Sam Snead, Ernie Else, Fred Couples).

These are both the most challenging skills that I have ever attempted to learn and repeat. This is why as I have commented on in the past that unlike Don who says he has to 'fight' flattening out too much as he drops into the slot occuring during the bump that I on the other hand hope to do the opposite. That is I dream of going from vertical to looping into that simi-laid off drop into the slot and NOT over the top and across which is really the wrong/opposite loop/clubhead path. This in my opinion is why most of us (not you old hooker) fight the slice/fade.
Likely this is why most of us are comforted by the thought that the bump is automatic (we hope) because we can't do it with any consistency. Too this is why I am satisfied with being able to just K.I.S.S. and simply work on being;

One: more vertical
Two: 3/4's only
Three: keep the lower body quiet
Four: Allow for no purposeful wrist hinge

Doing those four out of the desired 6 have still helped me go from an 18 handicap to around a 10 now.

Yes I still work on the bump, dropping in (from vert to simi laid off) and lag but am no longer obsessing over getting there. When first starting with Surge in early 2009 I hoped to some day break 80. Now that happens around 1 out of three trips out and a 74 highlighted my golf just three weeks ago. 36 for nine at muni is within reality and I still feel I'm making progress each week.

I think the most important thing is to use one group or the other of the fingers. Either use your index fingers and thumbs, as Ernest Jones recommended in his instruction, or use the last three fingers of each hand, as Surge recommends. Either way keeps only the muscles on one side of the forearms active. When all the fingers grip, the muscles on both sides of the forearms get active and compete against each other. Surge has said in the Foundations Manual and in the basic instructional videos about the Grip that he prefers to use the last three fingers of each hand because those activate the lifter muscles on the outsides of the forearms, which he feels gives you more power and control.

EDIT: PS- Yes, some folks on here can sound pretty aggressive in their tone. They weren't beating you up over the idea that the grip is important. They were disagreeing with your statement that the grip was all-important. To wit: It is difficult to make a consistently good swing with a bad grip, but it is possible to make a consistently bad swing with a perfectly good grip. Clearly, in your case you had good swing mechanics but needed to get your grip straightened out and when you did, it felt like a miracle. You wanted to share that miracle and were shocked and offended when others said it wasn't the miracle they needed. Sorry for any part I may have played in making you feel like you were being beaten up.

The front as well as the back? The back 9 greens at Muni have always been in better condition. The biggest problem ones are the ones at the north end, 4, 6, 7 and 8. Seven up there on that hill in the corner just never seemed to hold grass. I've said for years that they need to put in a temporary green just below and resurface the whole thing.

Clearly that pigeon feared Bo knows squab.

Dan,
That is unfortunate that your wrists have started to hurt. While I have had work related finger issues I can't recall feeling my wrists hurt from golf. Is there a possibility you are gripping too firmly? I was and realised it about 8 months ago when it turns out rather than a 3 on the 1-5 scale I was closer to 6 likely! The other point is you may unintentionally be over focusing on release through impact and that may lead to pain. Not sure but I hope you are not over active with your grip and wrist action. I'm finding as Don says no wrist action is good wrist action and making sure the arms are fairly nuetral over all while the rotation happens primarily in the shoulders and not forarms and wrists so much. Nothing should change in the grip/wrists during the swing. There is passive flex but too much tightness and control may cause the wrist pain too. Wrist wraps and thumb position are other considerations. One more may be that you may be going past 3/4's and that can add to the stress on the grip and wrists at the top/transition. These guesses may be off in your case I am just bouncing the possibilites off you for consideration. Good luck and let me know.

Dan, reconsider these dailies which cover related thoughts.
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Da...

2:42 p.m. — D.J. Trahan, who went to school at nearby Clemson, withdrew with a back injury. He played one hole.
PGA Tour update.

Terry, I have tried many designs for putters. The latest was the forward lean center shafted style that is designed to encourage getting the ball rolling end over end. Of course I have the Odessy belly, and four other blade and mallet putters. Funny that I keep going back to my old putter that is called Saint Andrews and is shafted one third from the heal. It is more upright than most and has always ended up back in my bag after flirting with others.
My misses have almost always been pulls left of the cup. I have now read many books on putting , practicing drills and attepting various grips and methodes.
How could I stop pulling the ball when putting?
Here's the good news. I am no longer pulling putts and the putts are on line and starting to drop in more often.What changes made the difference? Glad you asked:)
I found that my lie angle was too upright. I bent it about 1.5 degrees flatter and am now using the saw grip method. It has helped my putting a bunch. Love it. Making most of my putts under 5 feet and lots more of longer range are dropping or tap ins.
Now if I can get all areas working on the same day.
PMG

 The expensive version of the V1 will let you do the lines through your computer as well as a number of other programs [one is used here for the Online lessons].

I have Photoshop and it has a helper program, Adobe ImageReady, that can import different movie files into a layered Photoshop file. From there the lines can be made on separate layers and then exported back to movie formats.

Very tedious and time consuming and you need a lot of ram and swap space [free hard drive space] to do it. Cheaper to think about one of the golf programs.

What happened to DJ......WD

 The system seems to have eaten my reply.  Hopefully it will reappear shortly.  If not I will try again on my next visit to continue our conversation.

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob

Don,
One comment - golfers taking two or three ( or more!) practice swings before hitting the shot are a big reason it takes five hours to play a round! Get your feel on the forst tee a then no more than 1 practice swing thereafter. Follow this rule and everyone will enjoy their round more!

Was'nt that called the 'Pod'?

True. I generally concern myself more with direction than distance on the range, except noting whether the gapping of clubs is working properly.

From PGATour.com Tour Report: 2:42 p.m. — D.J. Trahan, who went to school at nearby Clemson, withdrew with a back injury. He played one hole.

Curios
Are you just now starting to look at this swing this in depth ?
I have looked at these like this and noticed it a way back but never wanted to say anything with the fear of getting in a heated debate over it.

I have went as far as looking at the connection guys swing in slow motion with the lines to compare and see some of the same things.

I have concluded IMO that the hands slightly higher at impact comes along with swinging vertically.

I think a good goal would be to strive to get back to impact as we started but is it really obtainable. 

Edit

I would think it would be more important to get the club head back to the address position at impact and square to the target line.

For those looking to follow along with DJ's round, he's now on the first tee. Shot Tracker link is just on the left side near the top of this page.

Swinging the hosel to the ball and letting the club head trail the hosel is one if two things that I do to fix the shank problem. I tried it after hearing about it, and it seems to work. For me, it seems to work because I have a better sense of where the hosel is in 3D space than where the club face is--the hosel is simply at the end of the shaft in my hands, but the club face is displaced at an angle from the shaft.

It is similar to my being better at handball than table tennis, and better at table tennis that tennis--the ball is closer to my hand in handball than table tennis and tennis.

 The chair in the bad office caused the pain?

Glad to hear you had a good day Dan. I'm sure it was much to do with winter rust. Keep us posted.
PMG:)

I got stuck last night hitting off of the mats. When I got  there the grass tees were packed. 90% of the mats they have there are like a grassy material that you can stick a regular tee in to hit driver or what ever. I usually will not hit off these mats but last night the first 10 or so shots were a  little chunky and went know were. With these mats if you hit heavy it catches the club head and slows it down unlike the rest of the mats they have. I took a couple of more swings before I realized that I was dropping down a little on the FUS.I just needed to keep my posture and swing the club.
I am in a pretty good place with swinging the club right now. My only thought is to get my posture,alignment and just swing to the BUS and let it drop from the top and excel through impact up to great finish. I do not even thing about what the body is doing in the FUS it just happens. I feel like I am back to striking the ball like I was pre rotational lessons minus the left heel coming up on the BUS.
Now if it will show up in scoring.   

Steve :

    I with you on that!! When I have a "wde open" , playing by myself (a frequent occurience with our hot summer, mid-week conditions) I usually finish in aobut 2 1/2 to 2  3/4 hours  with a 5 minute break between the nines and in the shade near the 16th tee - -If no one is behind me.
     All it really takes is keeping the ball in play -- hit a fairway, hit near the green -- and keep moving. 
     I once played the same course in a little over 3 hours, playing with 3 "young studs" who were in the back tees and me on the yellows.  We would have been under 3 hours, except we caught up with a twosome of beginnners on the 15th hole. They were hitting ball everywhere except where they wanted!!  Incidentally, that is the only time I have parred the last five holes!  I have done 4 out of 5 a few times since then though.

    keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

    Amos

Robert,
That is if you equate forgiving with ease of getting ball airborne.  The ability to get the ball airborne is basically speed dependent.  So, if we have a player that can swing a club at 100mph is that club with the low vcop playing a club that is forgiving or actually hampering?  Explain the comment of MOI being high as in 14" or more.  I've never seen it discussed this way.  MOI is an expression of resistance.  Also, the higher the MOI of either a head or a club, the more effort it takes to swing the club.  So for a weak, slow club head speed golfer is an extremely high MOI forgiving?

thanks.....her played 3 holes according to the shot tracker.....Any particulars???....is it an old or new problem?

 Good points.

Sergio indeed releases along that line. The reason is his ability to drop the laid off club behind him to a slot that is closer to perpendicular to the spine angle. Hogan was a master of the move but used a lot of fore arm twist to get the club head on a shallow path and made the dropping of the club onto the fore arm/shaft at address plane a lot shallower than Sergion.

With the PPGS it takes a lot of lowering with the back shoulder to drop into the same type of slot that will release the back arm along the shaft address line.

There is another way to do so and that is to start in your personal MSP with the shaft angle in the desired line that the right arm releases on.

Another idea that just occurred is the difference in position of the back arm at impact for the puller and the thrower swings.

Pullers generally have more of a block or hold on release with limited arm rotation and the throwers are working to square up the club with the arm rotation to impact.

Thanks for the update.

That sounds sensible. I am just not use to seeing big jumps in distances like this and do not feel like I am swinging out of my shoes.