The trademark of the Peak Performance Golf Swing is our setup position with wide knees, outward pressure. It's an easy way to spot a Surgite on the range or the golf course. But, do you know what purpose this particular setup serves?
Jay Zo sent in a question to customer service regarding pressure in the knees during the setup and swing. He wanted to know if there should be more pressure on the back leg when we swing up to the finish.
Dear Don,
I have enjoyed your PPGS very much in the past couple of years. One question: Since the two knees are pretty wide and bent somewhat compared to conventional address position, does the right knee tend to receive more pressure on the muscle when you do the forward swing?
Jay Zo
This is a actually a really good question, but the answer is no. Yet, let's look at this further. Why do we want wide knees, outward pressure? The reason we have this trademark setup is because we want the limited turn swing and we want that swing to be vertical.
You should know that the limited turn means we turn the forward arm only to where it gets over the toe line. Once we reach the toe line, we go up. Because we're swinging on a diagonal, incline plane, the elbow to the hand and club will get a little behind the toe line and the club will get up near the center of the shoulder. However, the true defintion of the left arm over the toe line is from the elbow to the shoulder. If I draw a line from the butt of the club to the ground at the top of the backswing, I should see it somewhere at the ankle but no deeper than the heel. If it's past the heel, it's obvious that the arm is turning too deep and getting into the sacred burial ground.
The outward pressure is what helps us reduce the possibility of having too much turn. When you increase the range of motion in the lower body, it gives you more ability to turn your body and make a bigger turn. Since we don't want to do that, reducing the movement in the knees helps us stay directly over the toe line by limiting our upper body rotation as well.
Now, let's talk about the right leg (back leg). When we get preloaded heavy right (PLHR), we're supposed to sink a little bit onto the back leg. If you go up instead, you've got to come crashing back down, which leads to chunking the ball. This means there should be a slight sink as you load into the right leg. Load means the leg is receiving the weight so it should compress a little bit.
Straightening the leg rejects the weight. We want to receive the weight so you've got to allow the leg to sink. As you push off and try to swing up, the pressure shifts to the forward leg. So, to answer Jay's question, the forward upswing pressure is on the forward leg, not the back. The muscles are activated and doing their job once you sink into the right leg. Once you push off, within a blink, there's almost no weight on the back leg anymore, except near the toe. All the weight should have shifted to the outside of your front foot as you stood up to the T-finish.
The reason we have wide knees with outward pressure is to alleviate the possibilty of turning too much. Once we start the transition, the weight goes to the left side. Understanding this aspect of the PPGS is critical!
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
toe line
ah. i am glad don is now making this clearer. maybe it is me misunderstanding things but before i;m sure he used to say once the toe line is reached then everything is straight up, i took that to mean, the whole arm , hands, club everything, now it seems the hands and the lower arm can get a bit behind the toe line, , that was probably the case all along but it just wasnt that clear , not to me anyway.
cheeeers richard in the uk
Thanks Surge, another great
Thanks Surge, another great lesson. Took a couple of clubs and was able to get out and walk 10 holes yesterday, only had a few patches of snow to walk around. It has been a couple of week now, weather not the best!! Hit some good balls, 10 holes, 4 not so good shots, 1 to fat, other three grip not tight enough and over the top, not under. One thing, I have target, target, at least I think I do, hit good ball, ball goes to right??? IM thinking I need help on linning up, seems like I do it right, but had a few right balls yesterday?
Anyway thanks, it was so good being out, hitting, walking and sun light, can't beat it!!!
:o)
Start of the downswing
Surge, I know you don't prescribe to "pause" at the top of the backswing,
however, after 2 years of your vertical swing and after reading Ernest Jones' SWING the CLUBHEAD method and a tip from the Silver Scot, Tommy Armour, my game has improved 10 fold. The tip, and I quote from his book;
"One simple tip will infinitely improve the timing of most golfers. Merely pause briefly at the top of the backswing. This cures the worst fault in the golf swing. I discovered that the pause is a “feeling” of the club bottoming out. I asked a friend to watch my pause and he said he couldn’t see one………. I would probably guess it to be about 1/1000 sec.
I incorporated Jones’ theory of “Swinging the Clubhead” and Tommy Armour’s “Pause” (roughly just waiting for the clubhead to stop it’s upward travel) into your vertical swing and my distance on my driver increased 15 yds. and my irons about 10 yds. per club.
Also my direction on all clubs are now straight and narrow. One of my golf buddies remarks after my tee shots, “each one gets straighter and further ”.
Between your vertical swing, Ernest Jones’ theory and the tip from the Silver Scot I am now a happy golfer. I have told other seniors about my experience and they have improved also…I have also recommended your site to other seniors in my group…. We are all in our early 70’s and getting better scores each and every time......
Bill Miller, Wadsworth, Ohio
BILL
Have you ever played Pine Valley Golf Club ?
Transition
Whatever swing thought works is a good thing.
Since you estimate that your perceived pause is 1/1000 of a second, and since other people can't see it, what is probably happening is that you are not getting in a hurry to hit at the ball from the top and letting the natural rubber band effect of the body plus gravity start the butt end of the club down into the slot (maybe for the first time?).
I am not surprised at all that you picked up both distance and accuracy. I don't call what you are doing "a pause" but simply not hitting at the ball from the top.
In that respect I actually feel like I am pausing as my hands fall until my right elbow gets close to my body.
In a true pause where everything stops at the top with the body stretch maintained, the bump has to be delayed and timing is more of an issue. Even though that is doable it leaves a lot of room for error (which is probably why Surge doesn't recommend it).
My guess is that you are doing it correctly (even according to Surge) but it only feels like you are not.
Steve, I like your " and
Steve, I like your " and letting the natural rubber band effect of the body plus gravity start the butt end of the club down into the slot (maybe for the first time?)".
That's a good analogy.....
Transition
Just got back from La. after spending a month there ( father in law passed away ) so I'm trying to do some catching up. The "pause" discussion is the first one I saw since I'm starting with the latest and going backward...kinda like my game some days...lol.
I've tried different things with my tempo, speeding it up and slowing it down. It seems like I get my best results with a more deliberate BUS and almost feels like a pause at the top which allows me to feel the loading of my right leg and set me up for a full swing to the T finish. With a faster tempo I feel like I'm "hitting at" the ball or rushing and the finish can be almost anything but a T finish. A slower or more deliberate tempo also keeps me from coming over the top. I think it comes down to what fits the individual personality and what works for you.
Good to be back...btw. Missed you guys..and gals. ;0)
I agree with your thoughts as
I agree with your thoughts as I always felt that a pause helped my tempo and kept me from getting too quick of a lower body transition. I agree that the pause is so miniscule that it likely is not perceived as much as it can be felt. I think Surge believes that a pause disrupts the swing flow negatively whereas I sense it allows me to feel fully loaded and connected at the start of the FUS. Will give it another try, thanks. Kevin McCarthy
What Steve Said
Reading your description, I'd have said something pretty similar to Steve. The likelihood is that you took Surge's statement not to pause at the top and in order to feel like you weren't, you instead rushed ahead with your upper body. I get the same effect by thinking about letting my hands drop at the top. It gives the weight time to transfer and move the hips slightly (rather than the hips driving too much forward or worse yet, spinning), and that brings the club down in the slot and lets your body return it pretty naturally to the impact position.
The problematic pause is the one you see with some players where they intentionally hold themselves at the top of the backswing. That makes it as much or more trouble to start the FUS as trying to find a trigger to start the BUS.
MikeyfromKy
I have played Pine Valley many times. I live about 2 1/2 miles away.
Starting the Golf Swing
Hi Surge and thanks so much for turning me on to the PPGS. It is so much easier to swing the club and hit the ball well with more consistancy. I do have one question. Is it ok to begin my swing with a little upper body sway to the right in order to load the right side? I feel like a I have a better tempo than just pre-loading the right side and starting from there. Thanks again Surge and please keep helping us improve our game.
The Sway
Hi, Bri,
This is a dangerous habit to get into. I know, because I spent years working to get rid of my sway, and it still creeps back in if I'm not careful. The issue is that it creates movement in the opposite direction of what you want and can get you moving too far to the right. At that point you get stuck outside your back foot and have to fling the club to try to get it on the ball. Consistency goes out the window if you can't keep it under control. Certainly, you can find examples of a player with a pronounced sway off the ball who was successful: Curtis Strange. But you note that he's now an announcer.
<<<Moving
My "problem" right now is not staying still enough in the forward swing. Things look OK in the take away but my head and upper body are moving forward quite a bit from there to impact. (Way more than usual, especially with irons).
I didn't even know it until today. Compounding the problem is that I am hitting those same irons better than ever. (Figures). LOL
Now once again I have to figure out whether to fix an obvious problem or keep hitting the ball very well.
It's much easier to fix a problem when everything has fallen apart and I have nothing to lose.
Upper body moving forward
Hi Steeve,
I always listen to your expertise and I feel awkward replying to your own observations about your swing experience.
Regardless, Don says 'nose on the ball untill after impact', better to stick to parameters and avoid further unexpected complications (one problem leads to a multitude of others), unless you're a true explorer...
Parameters
That's the intelligent route for sure. I've never been accused of having intelligence though. LOL
It's not like I can just decide to do it the right way anyway (it will take a while). I have always done that a little with a driver but never with irons. It can only be seen from a face on view and when I checked it today it was pathetic. Problem was that when I went back out to fix it and make a good swing I hit the ground about 6 inches fat.
P.S. I can make a really good swing anytime I want to. Problem is that I can't hit the ball with it. LOL
Good Swing....Big Problem
Steve, I'm so intrigued by your closing thought. It's worth repeating:
"I can make a really good swing anytime I want to. Problem is that I can't hit the ball with it." Would enjoy hearing input on this topic.
I've had my instructor (more than once) just move the golf ball far away from me. "This little white thing seems to be a distraction for you." Yup.
I will then groove the swing nicely, over and over, and am not ball focused.
The ball goes down, and it changes, starting with the grip. My tempo also seems to suffer when the dance includes the little distraction known as...the golf ball.
GRIP ISSUES are my number 1 swing killer. I have (right) hand pain, at times, that reminds me that I've locked on. Ironically enough....
sometimes the less I care about the shot, the better it seems to go.
Swing without the ball
Lots of people are like that. Most of them are somehow incapable of making the same swing with the ball as they do without it. My wife is the world's champion at that. Really nice practice swings and terrible real swings.
For me it's a lot more complicated than that. I can make exactly the same real swing as a practice swing, and can make both of them good swings (no problem). Can't even tell the difference in slow motion. The problem comes from the fact that for some reason my bad swings hit better shots than those good swings. It's not supposed to be that way but that's the way it is.
I guess I just have a really efficient bad swing. LOL
real vrs practice
We have talked about the challenge of the real swing vrs a beautiful practice swing many times. Funny (or maybe not:( that your wife has such a challenge after a swell practice swing. My Cindy is the same way. Same old story. Some folks just get phyched out by the ball or something. I think it boiles down to added tension and the feel for the need to "hit" the ball. Of course some times she will just hit some of the prettiest shot out of no where. I'm convinced it is when she is thinking the least.
Yesterday I did further shorten both her 5 wood and her hybrid. Length is just one of those variables that are tough for most amatures. So I cut her hybrid down to just 1/2 inch over her favorite "longest" iron- the 5i. Actually put a different head on it too (the 23* Clevland Mashie) so the epoxy is still firming up so no test until next week or so (weather permitting). I also cut another inch and a half off her 5 wood making it only another 3/4 of an inch longer than her hybrid but about 2 inches shorter than standard for woman. What is standard any way. Being able to hit the ball square more often than not is the real standard to aim for.
Moving
Steve, I had the same problem. If it happens again,I'll revert to my long tee between my teeth aimed at the ball and keeping it on the ball until after impact. Have that particular tee, a wide flat blue one separate in my pocket. Haven't needed it yet ; - ) Keep on hitting them straighter consistently. DH after the best round of golf I have had in years, nine shots under my handicap! Yeeha!
Sway During Backswing
Any intentional upper body sway, would negate one of the key parameters of the Surge Swing....a "steady head", and probably make it harder to have the balance required to make a good BUS without going into the "Sacred Burial Ground." It would be easier to lose the tension in the knees that helps restrict the turn. Timing/getting back to the ball might be more inconsistent.
After PLHR, my tempo is helped by letting a simple turning of the right side, with the the right hip being leader of the band and the lifting arms the followers. A knee restricted turn, rather than a sway, using the big muscles of the body will encourage a smooth and consistent takeaway with a steady head.
The pause
Hi fellows,
Please correct me if I'm wrong,
I was under the impression that ringing the bell on top of the backswing equates to a timely, but a not inert pause, preceeding the forward swing.
A total stop, even for a fraction of a second, up above would kill momentum.
I do not think that don had avoided the issue, but instead, had made very clear with his ringing the bell imagery.
Please elaborate,
Regards.
The Pause, Slightly
Tommy Armour's reason for the SLIGHT pause was, " It automatically sets up
your timming and rhythm." Before I learned how to swing the club I was a hitter. According to Ernest Jones, a swing is a definite action in itself, and subject to its own peculiar laws. Swinging and hitting are diametrically opposed methods of applying power. In a swing the connecting medium between the power and the object swung has both ends moving always in the same direction; in hitting, the two ends of the medium always move in opposite directions. It is no more possible to join up the two in one unified application of power than it is to mix oil and water. So those who want to discuss the "pause" are maybe hitters. So the pause would not be beneficial to their "Hitting" (swing? ). Big difference....... Like Ernest said, a swing is a definite action in itself, and subject to its own peculiar laws. Like mixing oil and water.
Pause
Here is Surge's myth number 6 on the pause.
6. Myth: Pause at the top of the backswing.
Pausing at the top is another myth believed and taught because the naked eye is fooled by the speed of the hands, arms and club at the transition at the top. In other words, the eyes see a pause that is not really happening. High speed cameras have shown that there is no pause, as some body part is always moving, and nothing ever really comes to a complete stop in a dynamic swing. A smooth transition from backswing to forward swing motion has to keep flowing. To pause or stop would mean having to get the motion re-started. At the top of the backswing, the only way that can happen is for the shoulders and arms to re-start the club, breaking the proper timing sequence of body movement where the lower body/legs are suppose to start the downswing.
And here is a later video he did on that.
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/controlling-tempo-timing
The Pause, Slightly
Here is another way to understand it. Your driving your car and it has an automatic transmission in it. In this case scenario you are going to use your left foot for the brake and the right foot for the gas pedal. You approach a stop sign and you brake with the left foot, as soon as you “feel” that the car quit moving forward “Paused” you hit the gas with your right foot. That is all there is to the backswing PAUSE.
The Pause, Slightly
Example, I throw a ball up in the air, what happens before it changes direction. If it's not going up anymore it starts to come down. That change of direction is the SLIGHT PAUSE. Watch it in slow motion, frame by frame, at one of those frames it's not going up anymore and it hasn't started to come down.... I don't like cutting hairs but I'm just trying to make a point. It works for me, in fact I use it when I putt and I'm getting more 1&2 putt greens and it has eliminated 99% of my "left it short" putts.
Pause
Surge is big on eliminating phrases in golf that send the wrong message.
One of those is pause at the top and another one is hitting down.
Even though technically of course we are hitting down and probably technically some of us are pausing at the top both of those thoughts send the wrong message to the rest of the body because the muscles of the body need to be geared for up and the rest of the body is already moving into a weight transfer as the club reaches the top.
I would say that I have a pause (except for the lower body) just as I reach the top (like your ball example) but at that time the lower body hasn't paused.
I would also say that Surge probably doesn't ever have a pause in his swing. The ball example doesn't apply very well to his swing because his club head is always in motion from slightly across the line at the top to moving outside in a little loop. His is more like a ball that never has a stopping point at the top but more like a roller coaster that makes a turn at the top but never stops.
My club head usually doesn't make that little continuous loop at the top but just gets to the top and starts coming back down like it went up.
I don't have an opinion about whether a person should think of a pause or not. I figure whatever works is what a person should do. If thinking of a pause stiffles the mechanics of the lower body they shouldn't use it but if the lower body is not influenced by that thought everything might be fine.
Agree completely
Steve, I have been busy all afternoon and just now read everyones comments on sway or not and pausing. I really like the points you made and especially that even using the terms sends the wrong message.You and others covered it very interestingly and while I say that if it works for some to sway and pause fine of course, just as there are many ways to swing however if they want to be successful with this swing a sway is a major no no and a deliberate pause is not going to allow for a continuous flow with the lower body leading and the upper body to have that brief resistance and fall into the slot as Don teaches. I do agree that many of us may have a millisecond (or more) of a pause but deliberate pausing leads to a restart from the top and a likely loss of timing and power. More movement = more mistakes for most of us. Now a slower tempo may give an appearance of a pause. Freddy, Ernie have mellow tempos but no pause.
Here's Ai Miyazato. I think she has one of the most gradual slower back swings in golf. My wife Cindy wishes she could swing like this, so do I (ha ha!!) Hurts my old back just watching. Even though this is in super slow motion, making a 2 second swing seem like 32 seconds, notice that there is no pause, rather a continuous and beautiful flow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf7Azow4c4s
Now her tempo is slow but there is no pause. Surge has a faster tempo, more like Nick Price. So I think it is indeed better to play in terms of tempo and not pausing.(just like is recommended in the video you posted from Surge).
The sway? Lets just say, "No way". Like Robert F. I took a while to un ingrain the move to the back foot. It is so much easier and I play so much better with a PLHR. No sway and very little movement at all going back. Just a little sinking on to the back foot, maybe an inch at most. Quieter the better. Stable spine, posture and head works best for me.
No sway. Quiet, no wrist break, 3/4's. Everything else Surge teaches about less turn and a quiet lower body and knees.
So if some feel a purposeful pause helps them fine, it is just not something Don recommends. Sway? Not me. If I do it is an accident that I'd want to avoid.
Interesting topic and makes for thoughtful reading and thinking.
Ai
I don't blame your wife for wanting to swing like that. LOL
If I dedicated the next 5 or 6 years and 12 hours a day to flexibility training I might get in that ballpark.
By then I would be too old to play anyway. Hahaha!
Forward swing
After the bounce, the pressure on the left leg must equal that on the right leg in the back swing until the club is in the catcher's mit then it is up to a finish. (Not swing up to a finish from the top of the back swing)