No Wrist Cock, PERIOD!

I received two emails from a gentleman named Walt who is convinced that I cock my wrists during the swing. I got these emails awhile ago, but wanted to wait until the right time to release the video. Well, that day has come. Walt insists that my wrists break, so today I'm going to try and put this issue to bed, once and for all!

Good wrist action is no wrist action. This is something I have been saying for years and years. It's one of my Surgisms. Yet, every so often I get a critic who is adamant that I actually cock my wrists. Well Surgites, today I'm going to let the video do the talking!

Be sure to pay close attention as I go into greater detail than ever before about the position of the wrists throughout the swing. I devoted about twice as much time to today's video because I really want you all to understand what I mean when I say, "No wrist cock, PERIOD!" I even enlisted the help of my mentor, Dr. Ned Armstrong, to help better describe the message that I'm trying to get across.

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

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Amen

Terry you are spot on as usual. There will always be those fringe readers and occasional watchers of Surges daily videos who really have no intention of fully committing to the PPGS swing. As one fellow admitted the other day, "I learn most my tips on the internet and that's why I don't buy Don's lesson videos."
While it is no sin and it is likely typical of many of the readers visiting this site.
These are mostly good guys,gals and golfers I'm sure who are just looking for a few tips and using some from here and some from there yet never fully committing to one method. Some will, some won't so what, who cares. We are glad they have stopped by and maybe they will join us completely some day. If not they at least help spice up our conversations.
As Terry says, we in the Surge Nation know the voice of our instructor that's why though we likewise come from diverse golfing back grounds and we have our eyes wide open to other methods, we recognize we are home here with Don Trahan and are happy with how much he has helped us understand and enjoy this great game.

Stick with one system,you are wasting valuable time if you don't

If there ever was golf student who was constantly looking for the holy grail it is yours truly.I took the game up when I retired at 60 years of age and at last count I have passed the $160,000 mark for funds attributed to golf instruction.This sum does include some accomdations as well as air fair to travel to take lessons.I have had more then 100 different instructors and have covered One Plane Golf with Jim Hardy,Natural Golf with Moe Norman,Gravity Golf with David Lee and Butch Harmon,David Leadbetter and on and on. I live for 6 months of the year in La Quinta Ca which has 175 championship golf courses within a 30 mile area. I have talked the game of golf with hundreds of instructors and have a great base of knowledge but never was a very good golfer.Alot of that I can attribute to myself because I was always looking for a secret or magic move. I never stuck to one instructor or method and then my back really started acting up and the thousands of hours I spent on the range we're beginning to take it's toll. As you know the rotary swing is very hard on the spine and will get you sooner or later if you don't find a better more body friendly happy swing.

As far as the instruction went,I found that most instructors never wanted to teach,they we're forced into teaching because they couldn't make the tour.The typical instructor would stand next to you leaning on his golf club and watch me hitting balls,Of course as luck would have it every 10 balls or so I would luck out and hit a solid sraight shot.The instructor would say Good Shot.I would then say What did I do to hit that good shot and he would give me his best guess while I tried to duplicate my one in 20 good shot percentage. The second type of instructor was the one tied into the video system and he would stop me from time to time and point out some minor position that I was supposed to be in as compared to Tiger Woods or some other name player. I would point out to the instructor that I am a man well up in age and for him to compare me with Tiger Woods was a stupid comparison. Then I attended many 3-5 day schools where I was all excited about learning the David Leadbetter method or what have you and was paying up to a $1000 per day to get this vital information.We we're just getting started and I happened to ask the instructor how long he has been with the Leadbetter system and he said this was his first day because the school had an overflow and he works down the street at a range and was called over to fill in.He later told me his fee at the range was $35 per hour. So much for the secrets.

I had given up on golf for over a year and one day I took seriously the Peak Performance Swing info that I was receiving on a daily basis in my email box. My bad back and this swing that was less strenous peaked my interest so I looked further.This guy Surge tals allot but what he was saying made sense to me so I bought quite a few of the programs and studied them for the last 3 weeks and low and behold I am hitting the ball better then I was at anytime before.My interest is now teaching and not playing,I do need to make at least a reasonable attempt so that I can demo the material and have some credability.I don't charge for my lessons so I can pretty well dictate the terms. I feel the Surge's material is perfect for me so that I can present a golf swing that has been stripped of all the parts that are not vital to success.

I was a championship dancer and an excellent tennis player in my youth and I just knew that the rotary swing was taking me no place,but I did not have anything I thought could replace it untill the Surge came along.

My final warning to all of you who think you will come out ahead by trying to follow conflicting information from various sources,please think it through again A PLAYER ONLY HAS SO MUCH TIME TO PLAY THIS WONDERFUL GAME AND IT IS MY CONTENTION NOT TO WASTE IT BY INTERMIXING CONFLICTING METHODS.

My best to all of you out there.

Doug
Ps I will be attending the Surge school in Palm Desert Ca in February 2013

Stick with one system,you are wasting valuable time if you don't

My best to all of you out there.

Doug
Ps I will be attending the Surge school in Palm Desert Ca in February 2013

Sticking with one system

Welcome to the Surge Nation Doug. I agree with your thoughts on the rotation systems, and trying to get pieces of very different puzzles to fit together is a recipe for disaster. I think you will like the PPGS, I've been with it for a few years now and have no complaints.

Great recommendation Doug

Enjoyed your story of searching for the secret. Though not to your degree, i like many here tried many a teacher and method until I came home to Surge. It is all so clear here isn't it? Golf makes sense to me now and is a lot more fun and consistent.
You'll rally have a blast learning from Don in February. If you can, video tape your clinics for use after words. Like all good things these schools go fast and it is easy to forget some of the jewels you will glean. Being able to review them later is priceless as his principals and keys never change and will still apply 5-10 years from now or for your grand kids 50 years from now.
What Don teaches will still be great both now and forever.

Or not

Asking a question of Robert Meade. You say that the wrist has "very little flex" up or down. It has about 1/2 the motion of it's arching/cupping action.

Hold a club in your hand with your arm straight out parallel to the ground and then just use your wrist to raise the club so that it is pointing straight up. This can be done without any cupping or bowing of the wrist, only flexing of the wrist (up or down). This is almost a 90 degree range of motion.

Am I off base here?

Wrist non-cock

Hi Don:
I liked this video for a few reasons. 1. You clearly explained your wrist cock: what wrist cock you have is set at address and does not increase. 2. You finally mentioned that your right wrist bends backwards to help keep the left wrist flat on the back up swing. 3. You finally explained what happens to the left wrist after impact, it bends backward toward the left forearm!
So, the challenge for me, and many others I'm sure, how does one transition from a flat left wrist, one that we are fighting to keep flat, and uncocked, to suddenly "releasing" it and letting it bend backward ONLY after impact? You've been doing it your entire life. We have been told to catch raindrops in order to keep the left wrist flat and prevent a pre-impact breakdown. And we have been told to NEVER let the left wrist "flip" ( I.e. bend backward) before impact. Seems like a very fine line, requiring impeccable timing.
Do you have any drills that would help train that action?
Thanks for your passion!

Louie

The action reaction are mirror images that happen on both sides of the swing. It is possible because of the perpendicular square set up and swing Don teaches. The timing becomes much more automatic once you learn the set up and over all basics. There is no flipping but rather rotation of the arms. All of this is explained in Don's PPGS swing video series. You really should do yourself a great favor and purchase and study the lesson videos first. Then all your swing questions will be answered. These daily videos are only to fine tune areas of the swing and gives us a forum to talk about it on this blog. But the lesson videos are fundamentally needed for any one serious.

Click here and start with the instructional vids and manual.

https://www.swingsurgeon.com/shop/products/starter-set

No wrist cock

Best explanation I have seen. I now understand. i had been trying to keep my back wrist flat also and often felt it break a little. Now I see that is ok.
Thanks Surge.

DJ

Will DJ be in Tampa?

Honolulu didn't disappoint~!

Young Henley with a Birdie on the 18th saw off Tim Clarke and the rest of the field to finish in style!
Good golf from lots of players, but young Russel Henley outplayed them all. A bright future lies ahead. DH

Henley was awesome

Tim Clark hung right with him as they both shot 63 but just couldn't get any closer. It's going to be another fun season of golf watching on the PGA tour. Bright futures indeed for both Henley and Langley.
We'll look forward to seeing DJ Trahan back in action in California.
You have calmer golf weather there yet DH?

Wrist Cock Summary

So after all the discussion what do we have: 90% or more of PGA players rotate their arms slightly going back, maintain a flat left wrist (or a very slight cupping), hinge their right wrist backward toward their forearm, keep their left arm extended but relaxed, and turn their left hand/wrist Vertically (called wrist cock by those who don't have the "proper" definition) establishing a 90 degree angle between their left arm and club shaft. In the PPGS we rotate the arms slightly going back, try to maintain a flat left wrist, hinge our right wrist backward, keep the left arm straight, and then allow some "flexion" as the downswing starts to establish a 90 degree angle between the left arm and club shaft (no wrist cocking allowed). We have come full circle and arrived at the same position except the PPGS stops at a 3/4 swing length (many on the Tour do also particularly with irons) and the PPGS swing is much more vertical (almost impossible to find any PGA player who swings this vertically). What's the point?????

You don't get the point

The point is you don't get the point.

Many of today's teachers specifically teach a wrist cock that is not seen or taught in a correctly executed PPGS swing.

Look at this . Notice the severe wrist set at the 1:34 second point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jg8Fm1csnQ

This next one talks about adding a second lever
We don't!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZFv2Yq3RR8

Again, planned purposeful cocking in this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACt6gat2nZw

Though I don't expect you to get the "point".
It is clear that we do not teach or do as these and many other instructors and players.
To each his own. But you are just wrong to say we are doing the same as the rest. Just not so. We purposely do NOT wrist hinge or cock. Most do.
PERIOD

No Wrist Cock, PERIOD!

Always look forward to your daily lessons, Surge. My understanding of wrist movements is thus:

1. Radial deviation of the wrist - wrist cocked up so that the left thumb becomes closer to the forearm

2. Ulnar deviation of the wrist - wrist cocked down so that the left thumb becomes further away from the forearm

3. Dorsiflexion of the wrist - common terms = scooped wrist position, cupped wrist position - the wrist bends back in a horizontal plane, while the wrist remains level (neither up-cocking or down-cocking

4. Palmar flexion of the wrist - common terms = arched wrist, bowed wrist
- the wrist bends forward in a horizontal plane, while the wrist remains level (neither up-cocking or down-cocking

Your view of the left wrist cocking at the top of the swing being a "Cupping" (see #3 above) is not what I understand to be "Cocking" the wrist. For the purpose of this discussion, I refer to cocking as described in #1 above.

That being said, I understand what you are saying in today's lesson and really appreciate your efforts to straighten out me and others regarding your method.

I have too many years of keeping the elbow straight and cocking the left wrist - (1 above so we are on the same page). I find it very difficult to maintain a stiff wrist position and allow the left elbow to bend during the back and down swing,,,, BUT! I am going to really try to incorporate it into my swing.

Thank you for your efforts and your method. Really enjoy your lessons. Don't give up on us hard-heads out here. Best wishes in the future.

You Don't Get The Point

Of course PPGS doesn't teach the deliberate, purposeful wrist cock but that doesn't mean it is not occuring naturally and without thought. See slow motion video of D.J. Trahan here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhNv9VGYg3I
His wrist cocking is very obvious, in fact it starts very early in his takeaway more so than his Fathers. You can maintain a cult-like obstinance about the wrist cock if you want but physics, kinesiology, and tons of modern golf swing studies argue differently.

Much less than most

Have fun with all those studies. I can clearly see that DJ has no obvious wrist cock early in his back swing and it looks to be about the same as the angle he set at address. When he rotates the arms to about 9 oclock there is still less hinge than most. Many others have much more angle and set. Cult following? Funny. We are a loyal bunch though. I have taken lessons with mainstream coaches before I came across Surge and he absolutely does not teach nor do we practice with the kind of wrist cocking that most teach and do. I've seen DJ play in person at three tournaments so far. Watched him up close on the practice tee and at clinics. I have also examined his swing often and from all angles and in slow motion. There is no purposeful wrist set and the angles are much less than most.
This is the point that we are making here. Most teach a purposeful wrist set and it is a prominent part of there method that their students need to work at. We actually work at doing the opposite, that is purposely not cocking the wrists. Yes there is some movement but less than others teach and do. Less wrist angle(ing) is an important part of reducing the swing to 3/4's and staying away from a flat backswing. It helps us keep the swing more compact and with less room for error. Personal experience these last 4 years has proved this to me.
I'm sure you have lots of great reasons to believe other wise. That's your prerogative. And it's A-Okay. Feel free to have the last word I know you will. I'm all done. Having been taught personally by both Don, DJ and Greg Mac Donald I have personally experienced the vast differences between what they teach and do and what most others teach. Your welcome to disagree. I feel as I do from 45 years of of golf and personal experience and not because of a 'cult' following. Though that was cute and made me giggle.
Good luck and enjoy your own way. Hope it helps you get it in the hole in fewer strokes.

Rotation

DJ starts his take away with the arms rotating clockwise much sooner and much more independent of other body movement. As soon as he completes that rotation (which stops as soon as his club shaft and left arm are in line with, and on top of, the toe line.

He also has his hands in tighter to his body than Don does, and has significantly more spine angle tilt. A vertical line from his chin down to the ground bisects about mid-ways of the club shaft whereas that same vertical line down from Don's chin bisects the hands.

DJ also is capable of lifting his left arm very high at the top of the swing. The higher the left arm is lifted the more past 12 o'clock the shaft will be even with only the angle set at address, and the more past 12 o'clock the shaft is the more the angle will increase under the forces of transition.

When DJ rotates his arms from the shoulder joint very early in the take away it displays the angle set at address from a face on view almost instantly. BTW he has to make that move because his grip is weaker than Don's.

He maintains that same angle set at address until the forces in the transition change it slightly at the top and more drastically as the hands begin to fall. This lag that is created is completely unavoidable with ANY powerful swing that doesn't cast the club head out from the top. The more powerful the swing the more lag will be created.

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ROTATION

Steve, you make some very good observations which I totally agree with except for the idea that you must intentionally and deliberately hinge your left wrist vertically (radial deviation) for there to be "wrist cock". I have had many lessons from traditional instructors (by the way I have had a one hour private lesson with Don Trahan and have followed his instructional evolution since DJ was in high school). Most instructors do not mention the wrist cock so long as they see it occuring. They usually only teach wrist cock when a student can't seem to make it happen. It can happen early (Johnny Miller), gradually throughout the backswing (most golfers), nearing the top of the backswing (Jack Nicklaus), or only during the transition and start of the downswing (Lee Trevino). Most golfers do not consciously think of the wrist cock because the momentum of the clubhead tends to make it happen naturally. Let's say the angle between the left arm and club shaft at address is about 110 degrees. If the left arm does not bend and the left wrist remains flat this angle will never reach 90 degrees unless there is a vertical hinge / radial deviation movement of the left wrist. Just raising your arms upward or rotating the left forearm will not establish this 90 degree wrist angle. The Surge tends to dismis this movement as just a "little flexion" but it is this little movement which reduces that angle from 110 to 90 degrees. You are correct that maximum "lag" cannot happen without this movement at some point. Regards.

Lag

What you call wrist cock I call lag.

Lag

I think your thoughts on Lag are spot on! Actually I think it is best if Lag is created and maintained without any conscious thought or action. When you have to think of actions or positions tempo and timing can get way out of sync.

No Wrist Cock

Being Scots/Irish I love a good argument...errr discussion. As DH pointed out we're all different shapes and sizes and have our own take on the PPGS method Surge teaches. I will certainly never be the poster boy for his teachings, but coming as close as I'm able has saved my back and made tha game a lot more fun.

I played yesterday on a soggy course concentrating on 2 things: 1. Outward knee pressure 2. No wrist cock. As Robert M. mentioned SIFI (set it and forget it). I shot 2 over on the front and 5 over on the back, my best round in quite some time. Those rounds seem to happen when I forget semantics, get out of my own way and just play.

Surge is the man. Now, where did I put that duct tape?

No Wrist Cock, PERIOD!

Don (Surge),

As hard headed as I am, I have to admit I was wrong about having to have that last "Lever" (Wrist Cock) incorporated into the swing. Years of attempting to force a cocking motion of the left wrist has resulted in nothing but inconsistancy.

I took to heart your statement that you try your hardest to have NO wrist action.
I also made sure that I cupped my right wrist on the backswing and released the right wrist at the ball on the downswing.

I started out taking half swings and just concentrating on NO wrist action on my left hand going back and down to the ball.

During the last two days of practice sessions I just had one swing thought (NO LEFT WRIST ACTION). I made two trips to the driving range and one to the course.

I have great hope that this will not be one of those changes that work for awhile but eventually fail to improve my game. I believe it will lead to a steady improvement because of your years of experience in seeing it work

A long time ago (years) I started using your method because the rotational swing had caused so many back problems I considered giving up the game. I have your method to thank for me being able to play without back pain.

I am absolutely amazed that the"No Wrist Action" swing results in my being able to hit the ball just as far or farther than I did before with the added benifit of improved confidence that I will strike the ball solidly.

Your latest lesson really cleared up what you mean by the term "cocking" the wrist.

Thanks Don. Keep up the good work.

w c

ok ive probably missed something and honestly i;m not trying to be argumentative, i;m just curious. how is it possible to create a 90 degree angle between the shaft and the left forearm at the top of the swing without cocking the wrists?

Forearm to shaft

The higher the arms go the more they slow down and the more the club head continues on. Then when the hips bump and create even more stretch between the body and the still climbing club it decreases even more. Then when the arms start to fall it decreases even more.

That's all opinion but it's all I've got. Click the arrow to the right of the picture and see the progression.
https://picasaweb.google.com/CaparasMedia/SwingSurgeon?authkey=Gv1sRgCKOGkOXE_Lq83AE#5177396908160506194

w c ?

cheers steve .i don;t want to put words into your mouth but its seems to me you are saying there is wrist cock but its not something you should actively think of doing its just happens and you can;t really avoid it. i know thats heresy here and and this has been done to death but i do find it genuinely puzzling. great sequence of pics . thanks.

ps.at the risk of appearing thick i didnt quite understand ' it decreases even more ' what does?

Angle

The angle between the left forearm and the shaft. Goes from over 100 to less than 90 degrees during the swing.

Angle Response

Steve, your comments in the Angle and your earlier picture progression are accurate and insightful in my opinion. If I may draw your attention to the picture progression where your left arm is just higher than parallel to the ground. You will see that the 90 degree angle has already been established between your left arm and the club shaft - probably 10 to 20 degrees less angle than was your address position. If you could remove your golf glove at this position I am sure you would see a little wrinkling in your skin just below your left thumb to wrist area. This is the radial deviation movement i.e. wrist cock that has already occured even though you gave it no thought, intention, or were even aware of it. Of course you get even more of this vertical wrist movement as you transition to the downswing. Great Lag! Of course this whole debate and discussion revolves around the assertion seemingly by the Surge (who I believe to be a fine man, a gentleman, and a good instructor) and some of his followers who deny this movement ever happens. It would be my opinion that it would be difficult to find any PGA quality player who doesn't make this movement at some point in their swing. As you have probably noticed by now some of Surge's followers seem not to have "Comment *" on their website but have "Comment * (But only if you agree with everything the Surge says)"! I can't believe the Surge feels this way and is open to discussion on disagreements.

Angle Response

Not my pics

Those are not pictures of my swing. That is Surge.

My swing will never be confused with his. LOL

I only wish I had his swing...

P.S. Silence can be deafening at times but measurable facts are measurable facts.

Not your pics

Thanks for the humor.

BTW what no one has talked about is the camera angle. Where it is and especially how high can distort the angle of the shaft. Having been fortunate enough to have seen Surge's swing up close and personal I can say that he maintains his firm grip and angle through the swing. Only at the transition does the forces involved in the direction change affect the angle and then only a small one.

SMH

Not this time.

w c

My answer to barrowcloughr@ rregardong how it is possible to create a 90 degree angle between the shaft and the left forearm at the top of the swing without cocking (not cupping or bowing) is:

It is not possible, PERIOD!!!! BUT and this is the important part.

It is not NECESSARY and should only occur without any conscious effort.

Surge is right in stating that fact (in my opinon). If you consciously attempt to make that motion with your left wrist, it will lead to inconsistant flailing of the clubhead at the top of the backswing with all the problems that derive from that action.

It is no longer productive to argue the point of "do they or do they not get the club to a 90 degree angle with the left forearm. It is a waste of time.

I have forced myself to use the method as described by Surge and for the last three days have hit balls just as far and much more consistently than when I was consciously trying to set my wrist to create a 90 degree angle (without any cupping or bowing).

delete

Flop Shot or Bunker Shot

Dear Surge,
When I open my stance and club face for a flop or bunker shot how do I know how much to open my stance? Also, what is the swing path? Swinging the same direction with my open stance or directly at the ball? I've been having trouble with good contact and having the ball go where I want. Just not sure of the angle of attack. Please help me out.
Also just started using the swingtech and the more I practice the better my surgically repaired back feels. Its a big difference in swings, thank you.
Keep up the good work,
Leigh

Open stance/ Open club face

Swing so the club is traveling down the target line through impact just as on other shots.
https://swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/how-open-face-can-still-be-square-target

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No Wrist Cock, PERIOD!

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