Hitting Down vs. Swinging Up AFAP

There is a lot of the Surge's AFAP in the recent Golf Magazine (Tomasi) article on Rory McElroy firing the right hip. Put Surge and Tomasi together and you have a powerful swing even for a small person. Pelvic Pistol Golf Magazine calls it. AFAP and Pelvic Pistol. Those are all you need.
John from Alexandria, Virginia

All club faces have angles.  So, are you telling me that a driver is intended to be hit by "swinging down" on the ball?  By your logic it would appear to be your position.  And, I am a professional authority on club design.  I have even done design consulting for one of the major component companies.  So, don't be so pompous to think I need your help.  If this sounds a bit irate, it's only because I am.

And, this logic of yours if played out in the same form, would mean that if clipping the ball off the grass causes skinny shots then hitting down on the ball would cause fat shots.  There are many different ways to swing a golf club and only two angles of attack, one is negative (down) and the other positive (up).  If you want to talk about pros and divots, then let's talk about the pros that don't dig ditches on their shots.

I'd say the shot calls for personal preference.  Whether to "pick" the ball or to "trap" the ball is up to the player.  But, as I said, and said correctly, the club is not designed with one swing or the other in mind.  The club is designed to get the ball airborne. The only aspect of the club design that figures into the angle of attack is the amount of bounce.

Just for the record, I have never been a divot taker and I also don't hit skinny shots.  Since I don't know you, I can't address whether you're an idiot or not (I'd guess not) but I can say that you don't know as much about club design as you think you do.  Make some calls; do the research, clubs aren't made to do one or the other.

I'll have to disagree with you.  The club angle is measured at the bottom of the swing.  If you are still swinging down at that point you have reduced the club angle.  Surge isn't swinging up when he hits the ball; he is hitting at the bottom of his swing.  The ball will compress when the club hits it.  Trapping the ball against the ground induces an error in the ball strike due to the uneven surface of the ground.  I play in West Texas.  If you swing down into caliche you can break your club or injure your wrists.  Almost as if you hit off the cart path.

 Robert,

You would think that people could understand that, but...

I drew a picture for a friend to explain it.  In order to trap the ball between the club and the ground, and to compress the ball, the club HAS to hit ON TOP of the ball.  Does anyone really want to top the ball?  I don't think so!  Trapping the ball is a fallacy, but, as some may like it as a swing thought, they can never actually achieve it.

The second part of the picture showed the club coming into the ball at a steep angle of attack and the ball running up the club face, creating lots of backspin.  MORE backspin means LESS compression which means LESS distance and LESS accuracy.

The third part showed the club hitting the ball at the bottom of the arc, square to the club face, with the ball receiving maximum compression.  The club face angle (LOFT) takes care of getting the ball in the air on the proper trajectory.  Maximum compression and minimal spin makes for maximum distance and accuracy.

As most of us know, swinging in accordance with principles of physics makes for the best possible golf shots.  I doubt that those who question the Peak Performance Golf Swing and Don's teaching methods will agree with any of this.

ouch.  Odd I thought I saw scoring for 3 holes..  Hope is ok.  Man, He is having a rough year.  Can not catch a break

I have been having a problem with release of my hands and arms, lots ot pushes and shanks.  I was watching an add for Optishot and they were talking about the problem with keeping your left arm too stiff; losing club head speed and not being able to release your arms well.  I went to the range and tried relaxing my left arm some.  I still was hitting everything right.  I was also working on keeping my head still.  I then realized I was not able to release my shoulders because I was not popping up AFAP because I was keeping my head down too long.  I then started working on popping up after contact.  All of a sudden I was hitting consistent drives and able to fade or draw the ball with a minor adjustment.  I think release is so important to club head speed and accuracy.  I am also am now seeing a problem with my irons.  I think I am releasing to much.  The divot is straight at the hole but the ball is going left.  A weaker grip that reduces my release seems to help. Does any of this make sense?

Craiger

Thanks Surge, what a good video!!  I have been so busy playing golf and helping with the humane society, I have not been here much.   My golf is going really good for ME, I just keep thinking of skipping a rock, that helps, kinda like pitching a under hand fast pitch??,,,then going up the tree...
Anyway thanks, I will be out there tomorrow, they say no rain, it has been raining here, but, we need it.   Good to see everyone is on a roll tonight with this video!!!  :o)))

marilyn

I think this is the only part of the instruction description that Don should change. Why change? Because it makes no sense after raising your club up vertical with high hands that we are NOT then going to swing down on the ball!
The fact is, even with Don's method the club continues to move down and skims the turf AFTER impact with the ball. The bottom of the swing is in front of the ball and you have to hit down on the ball.
Perhaps Don could re-think his instructions so that we still avoid taking deep divots without telling us "don't hit down"? Maybe "Don't CONTINUE to hit down after impact, but pop up, AFAP, to the finish"?

Sorry for the snippiness in my earlier tone, but there is an essential flaw in your call to authority here. Yes, many if not most golfers on the PGA Tour think about hitting down through the ball and take big divots, but they also take big turns, get the club well behind themselves, lift their left heel, get the hips and body turned well ahead of the arms at impact, and so on. Saying that Surge's advice is not followed by most PGA Tour pros is as good an argument for throwing out the baby and the bathwater and the tub and the whole dang bathroom. 

The PPGS has been developed by Surge with help and advice from physiologists and physicists to create a swing that is accurate, powerful, and most importantly body friendly. Driving the club head into the ground is not terribly body friendly.

Personally, I'd rather follow the example of Tom Watson, or Steve Stricker, or DJ Trahan and pick the ball cleanly off the turf.

Yes-all of you are right.

I believe that the report was wrong about the number of holes, but I copied it verbatim from the pgatour.com site.

Doc, yep I was referring to the bottom of the club, but he insisted that
he had the maximum "toe up" available, obviously these were all OEM's. Another theory that was given to me from a client was that the
club was to short, but this doesn't add up as all my fairway woods hit
the deck OK, any suggestions?
 

 Let us suppose that you are a potato farmer and are walking across your field carrying a large sack of potatoes over your right shoulder which suddenly becomes sore from the weight. You stop and decide to swing the sack from over your rear shoulder to over your forward shoulder. What is your thought?

To swing the bag down, then up in two motions, OR, in one motion to swing the bag UP AND OVER your forward shoulder.  With the club over your rear shoulder, SIMPLY think about IN ONE MOTION, swinging the club up and over your forward shoulder.

Give this a thought.

?        
Speaking
of Newton's Laws, his first law of a body in motion staying in motion
unless there are forces acting on it, I like this because of what I
learned in a sports mechanics class concerning why the golf club
swing needs to be completed properly (hands past the left ear and not
short of the ear). For those who are interested in an
explanation of what sports science has to say about this (it applies
to other sports as well), if you stop your hands short of a full
swing, that means that you had to slow down the club earlier than you
should, which means that you started decelerating the club too soon,
which means that you lost club speed. So, in order to keep the club
moving fast, it needs to follow through long (for lack of a better
word). So, completing the swing properly is important to keep the
club head from slowing down too soon."

Barry told me that Don worked with him at Sea Pines and learned a ton from him...  Did you sign up Robert?

You think you release AFTER hitting the ball? 

I'm sure Tom Watson agrees with you that picking the ball cleanly off the turf has led him to be a terrible ball striker (to name just one example).

No one is arguing that the club is on a descending path immediately before impact. But if your focus is pounding down through the ball, you're going to cause yourself more pain and have a harder time getting to a good finish. But you're free to swing the golf club any way you want.

Don, a few years ago a link to golf club sizing locations was posted with geographic references.  Do you still have such a reference.  I am looking for one in S.E. MIchigan, between Ann Arbor and Detroit.  Thanks. Frank

After an enjoyable eighteen hole of golf, a man stopped in a bar for a beer before heading home. There he struck up a conversation with a ravishing young beauty. They had a couple of drinks, liked each other, and soon she invited him over to her apartment. For two hours they made mad, passionate love. On the way home, the man's conscience started bothering him something awful. He loved his wife and didn't want this unplanned indiscretion to ruin their relationship, so he decided the only thing to do was come clean. "Honey," he said when he got home, "I have a confession to make. After I played golf today, I stopped by the bar for a beer, met a beautiful woman, went back to her apartment and made love to her for two hours. I'm sorry, it won't ever happen again, and I hope you'll forgive me."

His wife scowled at him and said, "Don't lie to me, you sorry scumbag! You played thirty-six holes, didn't you?"

And you know this how? The golf club is not designed to be either hit down or hit up.  Either way, when you hit the ball, it compresses.  Hitting down delofts the club and imparts more uncontrollable back spin. Yes, it will hit the ball further but that's due to the fact that the club has been delofted at impact.  Regardless, one thing I can speak as an authority on is club design and I can assure you that they are not designed with any particular method of ball striking in mind.

At the top of every page, in the menu bar under the site title, you'll see a button marked "Instruction & Club Fitting". Hover your mouse over that and click through the appropriate choice.

EDIT: That will lead you to the knowledge that the one Swing Surgeon Certified club fitter in Michigan is Greg Courtnay in Ionia: http://www.swingsurgeon.com/gr...

Mr Mathews,
I don't what your avenue of ball striking expertise is but Don Trahan is a long time teaching professional and 1 of the top 50 teachers in the nation. I and the surge nation is his followers and we understand his teachings and philosphy. He has been my teacher for almost 15 yrs. He knows what he is talking about. That's my imput.
Hal

It's easy folks - you are swinging up; and you are swinging down; albeit gravity is supposed to be a major part of the down bit. Perhaps Don should have just said, feel as if you are swinging up, or let the focus be on the upswing. For starters, if you focus on the upswing, and the upswing is on the right line/plane, then your downswing has to be down and on plane. Much less chance of swinging over the top. I have also noticed that if I swing up or feel I am swinging up, my club finished around the back of my neck: if I focus on swinging down, it never ever seems to get anywhere near that far. Ball anxiety in a nutshell.
It doesn't mean you can't focus on hitting down on the ball and hit it brilliantly. You just need to know how to hit down on plane with a full swing to completion.
Good discussion
John

Don has been teaching this a lot longer than Rick Barry.  Don was at Sea Pines pre Mr. Barry.  Don actually is the one that brought Mr. Barry to Sea Pines and trained him in the PPGS.  Don said that he'd stray from the program except when they would do schools.  Now here he is trying to mimic the program.

Hal-I too am a fan of Mr. Trahan.

 Up can occur before impact if you advance divot, just like you do in sand.  I do it all the time with a 7 or 9 to get extra lift.  And I stand up almost violently as I make contact, to amplify it even more.  It's how I throw Steve's rock over that tree.  It's a timing challenge in turf because of the bounce, but it is doable.

Radical Robert.

T Medley, really good analogy here. Because of the way Don sets up right side pre-loaded, AND with the limited BUS, there is a real sense of swishing up to the top. I just found this recently by going back to Don's video's, the revised set, and listening, then practicing, his set up on the grip that then sets him for the pre-loaded right by crimping that elbow of the back arm (in my case the right one).  This is another example of the set determines the motion. The limited turn and "light" club  get the FUS into that swish, that is, of course, an up and down, but the whole feel is a swing through to the top.  Great analogy.

Thanks Doc

Great points.

I can understand the confusion, but the key for Don is his pre-loaded right leg with shoulder tilt.  He is, and I feel it too, swinging "up" from the BUS position.  Of course there is a moment when that up swing bottoms out (that would be when the ball gets in the way and, as others have said, we are "picking" the ball) but the sense and momentum is an up swing, not a down attack and up release. Don's revised video basics really covers the pre-loaded right nicely, with the crimping of the right arm/elbow that he then sets against he body, forming that pre-loaded right and shoulder tilt.  Get that right, and the forward swing is an easy up swing, you will "pick" the ball your momentum will be that of an upswing, with coordinating hip, body and shoulder turns

Did this guy copy Don?  or Did Don copy this Guy?  I know Don used to work at Sea Pines.

http://www.turnandliftgolf.com...

Doc or anybody...  Does anyone know why Don's Son DJ just withdrew from Charlotte?  Thanks.

I agree with the concept of not swinging down.  I always swing with the idea of just brushing the ground at impact with the ball.  The problem I have is with the T finish; I just cannot do it.  I finish my swing more like Arnie Palmer does.  And I usually hit it relatively straight and on line with my alignment.

Kurt,
Frankly I think that very few Surge swing fans are stuck in any dogma that there is only one way to swing. In fact you'll we are generally an older and very diverse and experienced cross section of golfers that have come from backgrounds of much experimentation with different golf philosophies. We have simply found this method to the best for us.

Again, may I offer an attempt at clarification and interpretation of what the message is.  What is intended here is the fact that we do not "hit down" on the ball as is taught by a lot of golfer instructors.  This is the point of swinging up.  Some times the intent of the message gets lots in the words.  However, the message is simple, we do not hit down on the ball.

Actually, that's not very much like PPGS. Full turn, left heel off the ground, club in the SBG, etc. It's more like an imitation of Byron Nelson's swing. There are similar elements, but it's a pretty that looks like a pretty standard rotational swing.

What do you mean Steve?

I don't know whether this video adds/solves the confusion on this aspect of the swing
but as I see it now, Surge's emphasis is on the thought process of the swing. We all
know that to hit the ball solidly, we must be balanced with the head behind the ball
at impact, but even at this point, we must be thinking "UP", otherwise we stay
down to long and create problems with the club face and our body, on the follow
through.

Doc, this one's for you, went to my local range last night to get measured for a set
of replacement irons as Iv'e lost a couple of wedges from my old set, which were goodies. When checking for "lie" angles I found that no matter what lie angle the
Pro gave me, the contact point was at the toe, even with his greatest club angle,
ie all clubs gave the same reading and his version was that I was manipulating the
club head to suit each club. Doesn't sound right to me and would like an opinion.     

Glad you got it all figured out.

Now go play some golf, with what ever swing works for you.  This is the way the Surge teaches.  This is the way that works for us.  This might not be the swing for you.  Take what you want, and leave the rest.

You are free to disagree, but you don't need to be disagreeable.  Like the flag says, "Don't tread on me."

Just so you don't walk around feeling too special, you are not the first, but just the latest in a long line of folks who show up on this blog , take a few shots and then vanish.  Our regulars will take a few heated shots at you for a bit, then just ignore you and wait for you to go back under the bridge with the rest of the trolls who preceded you.

Time is way to precious to waste much of it on  folks like you.

Just saying,
Dick

Question on hitting balls in the grass and fairways.  I've only been golfing a year now and I still have the same problem with swinging through the ball.  I always manage to chop the ground which sends that jarring feeling up your arms.  What am I doing wrong? Should I be a little behind the ball or farther in front... any opinions would help greatly.

 Laval18
Here is a video on lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...