Do you ever top the ball and wonder why it happened? If you answered yes, then you know that nothing is worse than following up a great shot with a cold topper that barely dribbles down the fairway.
Jeff Springer has been preparing for the season in his own back yard driving range, but he's been topping the ball. He thought maybe his spine angle was changing and causing his bad shots, but wanted to know what else can cause golfers to top the ball.
Hi Don,
Thank you so very much for all your video help. I know it's going to improve my game. One of my most frustrating problems is topping the ball. Swinging in my back yard practicing and getting ready for the season I realized I was standing up and not holding my spine angle during the forward swing. I think this is the main cause of my topping the ball. Are there other explanations? Do you have any way of practicing that can help to correct this?Thanks again,
Jeff Springer
Sussex, NJ
It's obvious that one of two things could be causing Jeff to top the ball. Either he's standing up at some point during the swing or his arms are breaking down. Let's start with how standing up can cause you to top the ball.
If you're getting a little too much knee movement in your backswing and your left shoulder is going down, you're reverse tilting. You could also be turning too much with your shoulders and hips. If your back knee is straightening, it will push your weight forward and ahead of the ball. All of this causes you to move downward. This might cause you to chunk the ball or you may compensate and pull up out of the shot, which is how you top the ball. Jeff was right when he mentioned his spine angle change was most likely the cause, as that will certainly lead to a loss in consistency.
In some cases, clubs can be too long and so they force you to come up. One of the best things to do is to practice with your shadow in front of you. That way, if you see your spine moving forward, backwards, up, or down, you'll know that you're making unneeded movements. Maintain your angles by using wide knees outward pressure and a still head and you shouldn't have any problem topping the ball anymore.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
Great reminder
Thanks Surge for today's topic on avoiding both tops and chunks. For some reason I have had more chunks and toppers lately and maintaining (or not) my angles is the likely culprit. I am going to spend some time with the shadow today and then on the golf course (we play at 2pm) to make sure I am holding more steady with both the knees and spine. The other cause for me is simply over swinging. I know better but I still need to constantly remind myself that 3/4's is all that is needed to get plenty of distance and certainly more accuracy with all clubs. Steady spine, knees, head = solid contact.
I have to tell you that you
I have to tell you that you are so lucky being able to check your shadow for movement Robert. Here in England we do not have shadows because we have no sun!
Jenko
Lucky
Can't disagree Jenko. You do have the Stones, Beatles and a Queen! It's true we have about 300 days of sunny days here in the desert. On the other hand you won't have to endure the 100 days of over 100 degree temps we have also:)
Not complaining though. I have lived in cooler, cloudy wet places in my life and I much prefer the sun.
Lucky
Robert,
Just mowed the grass and then had a swing session in the sun. The shadow is indeed a great help. Using the restrictive drill in the BUS and am still amazed at how far it actually went back on my 'less than half swing'!
Took out for session 1, PW 7 and 4iron, 17deg hybrid and 3W. After swinging and being satisfied I was swinging well with each club. I dropped 10 balls in various places and chipped them with every club. It is a great drill. Even though the ground is quite dry in patches and lush where there is grass, in all cases 7 out of ten at least were tap in distance from the targets chosen. Even chipping at the same target with a PW and then a 3W was fun and challenging. It is surprising what you can do when you try ; - ) After late lunch/early dinner shortly I will go out with a different mix of clubs and repeat half and full swings, then more chipping. Have a great day and a better weekend. DH 'the chipper' hahaha.Having fish for the meal but no chips, boohoo!
Great reminder
Robert,
This is not me : - ) Just back after an early round. Had played 3holes before [actual]sunrise, and didn't lose a ball. Ball striking today was spectacular and the results the same. The only drawback was the greens!!! Damp with morning dew and they have just been cored and sanded.The sand more like gravel. Still had 3Birds and some good pars. For old times sake, I took out my wooden woods. Hit the 5W off several early tees and was stunned at the results. Straight, high and long. 200yds+ Who needs a driver? Later I tried the Driver, results not too bad. Need to work on tee heights for it. I had added the 5HL iron to the bag yesterday and am I glad I did! First one I hit was straight, high and long!!!
Decided to give it a go on an approach shot from outside my normal range of choice. Imagine the warm glow when I hit it onto the edge of the green around 185-195yards away!!! On my normal approach shots with PW/9/8 irons dead accurate and good distances. On the Par 3 hole with a high drop to the green, where I usually play an 8iron, I played a 9iron and was pin high. I played a 2nd ball with the PW and hit that well. It was as expected short. On a short Par 4 with lots of trouble both sides right to the green. Hit the 5W straight up the middle leaving a 1/2 PW which dropped on the pin and ran on a few feet. Easy Bird.
The ball striking was the best I can remember.
How? I used a tip I saw several days ago, on weight transfer, called the 'torture drill'. Take a 9/8/7iron. Set up normally then only take the club back to parallel with the ground[around waist high] and swing up to the finish. Done without a ball to start with, then low tee etc. Increasing the speed of the upswing through the target area. I did it on the golf mat for a few days. The restricted backswing, shortened my tooooo long backswing and allowed me to whip through the ball effortlessly. The condfidence it gave me today was gratefully received. There was no need to try and hit the ball hard etc, it just flew off the clubfaces. Now a complete rethink of what stays in the bag boohoo! Choices all the time choices. The right elbow rotated inwards allowing me to 'skip the rock' was in no small part one ingredient which helped enormously. 5W from the wet rough and hardpan, magic.
3/4 limited turn is all that is needed Robert.Funny. First hole still darkish.
Hit the 5W off the tee, we both got a line on it. Both assumed it would have filtered down towards the very close lush rough. We looked for a fair while and found it, in the middle of the fairway hahaha. On the next steep downhill hole it flew as far as my Driver normally does???
Have a great next round and try that drill, it may help with your over swinging, it did with me. DH
Not you
Sounds like it can be good not to be yourself DH! Maybe this is the new and improved you. 3 birds and many good pars?! Well done pal. Keep it going while you can. My game seemed to leave me today for a bit and then return toward the back nine. While not having a single birdie today I was striking the ball fairly well and managed a decent round. My brother joined Cindy and I again this week.
He hit a 9 iron nearly 200 yards today. Not intended. he only needed around 150 yards (a normal nine iron for him) but caught it a bit thin. He often has no clue how far his clubs hit any shot because he doesn't practice or play much until now. About every 4th swing he'll accidentally hit a great shot. He plans on putting more into his game in the coming weeks. I'm hoping he will use some of the PPGS ways I try to share his way. Alignment is the biggie of course. He lines up 20-40 yards or more right of every target. He'll hit it absolutely beautiful and straight well right of right. Hoping he'll listen in our coming outings and in practice. Time will tell. Meantime it is good to be on the golf course with him. Now to coordinate my Son's schedule to come out with me and hit balls.
Thanks for sharing your fun golf adventures DH. Keep 'skipping it " down the middle.
Hope Springs Eternal
There is no doubt in my mind that I am on the right track with PPGS and the Surge Nation. Easter has arrived here in NZ and we will be staying home and watching golf rather than playing it. It is safer to stay off the roads ; - )
Used to go away every holiday long weekend to Whangamata years ago and spend time frustrating myself (and others) playing golf every day. The body took a while to recover after these outings. The PPGS swing has changed all that. After yesterday's round, I could have done it again, thanks to less stress on the body and NO pain afterwards at all. Your brother sounds a lot of fun. Nearly 200yds with a 9 iron hahaha! Tell him that 'Golf is a game of power under control' hahaha. Can't remember who said that. On alignment, mine yesterday was spot on consistently, SCARY! Now to hone in the same swing in anticipation of the next round.
You, Cindy and your brother have a great Easter on the hallowed turf. I will off and 'skip a few' a on the front driving range, mat and grass ; - ) First warm up with the 'torture drill' to get the weight transfer and muscles stretched. DH
torture drill
DH
I took a closer look at your torture drill as described by ye above and it makes great sense. Didn't give it a try yet but will do so asap on the back yard driving range.
I will do it exactly as you have prescribed. It does look like one that will both encourage a limited BUS and more zip in the forward swing.
On another note, we are enjoying some great spring weather here and the wife and I are taking a mini 3 day vacation this week starting Tuesday. We are headed just 1 hour out of town to Mesquite. It is our anniversary on 4/4. Easy date to remember eh? There are some 10 golf courses in the area and several resorts. We will stay at the Casa Blanca. First day we are getting well deserved massages and then will play golf the following day at the Falcon Ridge. Then the next day we hope to play at another course. I may be "off line" for a few days :) Posted the web site below of this little desert layout for your consideration.
http://golffalcon.com/holes/hole-1/
The other we hope to play is Coyote Springs. Said to be a beauty by Jack Nicklaus.
http://www.coyotesprings.com/photo_gallery.html
Enjoy Your well earned Spring break
Robert,
Just back from 'chores' boohoo! No golf for a couple of reasons. This time it was the caddy who was suffering. So sensibly decided to forego the pleasures of a round. Chores included me chauffering my golden retriever around the area to various Korean and Chinese Food Marts for sauces,spices......etc......etc. Well we have to eat don't we? ; - ) She is already planning on adding coconut and nuts to the recipe for biscuits. Boy they didn't last long at all! hahaha.
Of out with my last cup of coffee of the day after our late lunch. Will get straight into the 'torture drill' with several clubs and then chipping with ALL clubs : - ) You just never know what you can do until you try. It has been quite a revelation. A long time ago I used to putt when practicing at lunch time [still in the Army then], with my wooden driver. I was pretty darned good with it too!
Jealous as heck that you are probably savouring a massage as I peck this out. Then I can have a massage here from my accomplished golden retriever any time hahaha. Will check out the links you left. Much appreciated. Hope that the Spa/Resort and Golf exceed expectations.
Have a great time both of you. And on the day have a Brilliant Anniversary.
Mine is coming up next month. So head down and scratching my topknot for ideas heh heh heh!
Topping the Ball
Hi Don, You summarized that there are 2 causes of topping the ball: standing up and arms are breaking down. You covered the first cause very well but I'm curious about "arms breaking down". You must be referring to bending you arms so that you shorten the length from the shoulders to the ball. The shorter distance causes topping. So if the leading arm is straight at address (and you don't do any head bobbing or lunging during the swing) you need a straight arm at impact.
A good way to keep the arm straight at the start and at impact is to focus on a straight leading arm throughout the back-swing. I found that GOLFSTR.COM does this for me. Have you tried this training device?
Showed it
Surge did show the problem of the left elbow breaking too soon in the FUS and talked a bit about it. Generally, it's a reaction to having chunked the ball, or fear about same, or having watched Lee Westwood too much. ;-)
Lee's Elbow breaks down at impact
Just checked Lee Westwood out. I see what you mean, his arm bends at impact (before the FUS) and it has cost him some shots with mishits recently. I was referring the the BUS and through to impact.
I missed Surge's comments on elbow breaking. Press release: Cure for Bent Elbow Syndrome covers it. Big problem is that this is not baseball and too many learned to swing a golf club as if it's a baseball bat. Surge might want to cover this?
FUS Clarification
Just to be clear, when we talk about the Forward Up Swing (FUS) it's not from impact to finishing position. It's from the top of the BUS to the finishing position. Everything after you ring the bell and bump is the FUS.
But, yes, Lee Westwood bends his left elbow going into impact. It's a testament to his hours of practice and amazing talent that he's been this successful a golfer with that oddity in his swing. For most of us, that would send us to the putt-putt courses, not the golf course.
topping the ball
for me a major culprit is playing the ball too much forward in the stance
Topping
Don, this one has me written all over it and was only thinking this weekend of sending some video's to you via "online" coaching, for some guidance.
Just checked my video's while you were talking and I can't see anything in
my video's that you brought up, ie "knees are steady", "only 3/4 turn",
"no reverse tilt", "clubs fitted", "no throwing out", yet I still come up and top
the ball quite regularly. Think I'll send them this weekend as it's driving me barmy.
Hooking the ball
Surge,
I found your site after searching for a back-pain-free golf swing. Not only is my back not hurting as much after a round of golf, but I find I am hitting the ball more consistently and longer! I am having a problem that developed during my last round last season and its already shown itself again this year. I have been hooking the ball severely with the driver. I am right handed and I feel that my alignment is good, but the ball is going left.... severely. Not a pull, but a big curving hook; it hits the ground and just keeps going left. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the daily videos; I love them.
Sincerely,
Jason Zvokel
Hooking
Hi Jason
I also have the odd bout of hooks & have found a few reasons why. Here are three possibles. 1 Ball is too far forward in your stance, so your hitting it late in your arm rotation. 2 You may be attacking the ball from the top of the backswing, instead of starting the forward swing with a free fall from the top, which gives you a smooth transition from BUS to FUS. 3 If I am having a bad back day , I am not able to bump properly, which gives me an arms only swing , & I hit everything left. Go to the search box at the top right of this page & type in "hooks". Theres a lot of information there. Good luck
Hooking
Russty Kiwi,
Happy Easter mate, if you are driving away for the w/e stay safe.
In my msg to Robert Meade above in it I explained a 'torture drill' in it. Check it out. It stopped me trying to skin the ball, hitting from the top, hooking, pulling etc, etc Easy drill and it sure isn't torture really. I used it before I teed off yesterday to get the weight transfer started and stretch the muscles. Takes no time at all. Have a great weekend DH
Happy Easter
Good morning & Happy Easter to you to DH. No trip away for me, for the same reason as you. Best to stay off the roads. There will be golf at some stage, & fishing on Saturday, with possibly one last crack at a marlin off the west coast. I will give that torture dill a try & see what happens. In the one & only golf lesson I ever had ,the coach had me swinging no more than waist high on the back & forward swing. He said that this was where the most important part of the golf swing happened & should practice it often.
I did find last winter when the ground got really soft, that by shortening my backswing up a bit, helped stop me chunking.
Cheers Russty
Hooking
Hook a big one on Saturday Russty Kiwi.
The drill is in perfect harmony with the PPGS swing in my opinion. It helped me start hitting the ball with the correct BUS and FUS as soon as I teed off.
DH
Demons, Topping, Round of Golf and Spring at Last?
Played a round in Chattanooga at Moccasin Bend this morning. Frost early but warmed up fairly well by mid-morning.
Shot an 80 and was fairly happy with how I hit the ball. Greens had been punched and sanded and I never made a putt more than 4 feet (close but no cigar a whole bunch of times). The punch marks also affected what should have been fairly routine chips and pitches. The chips being not quite as close and the putts not rolling the best added up to 8 bogeys and 6 pretty good chances at birdie that I didn't make. Probably the most comfortable 80 I ever shot. One of those that could have been even par just as easily on good greens.
I guess we all have our demons but topping the ball has never been one of mine. I doubt if I have topped more than 3 or 4 balls in my life (including practice). Fat is another story and probably 95% of bad shots I ever hit were fat. The other 5% were duck hooks. (I might have sliced a ball somewhere along the line but if I have I don't remember it).
Topping etc
Steve,
Sympathies on the 'punched' greens, know the feeling. We say 'cored' greens. Learn something every day ; - )
Punched Greens
It really doesn't bother me if the greens are punched, or just plain bad, as much as it does most people I know. Some people stay away from those courses for a while.
I just figure "the field" wouldn't be making any more putts, or scoring any better, than I am. After all everybody would have the same problems. Ha ha!
It was just nice to get out there and hit some really good shots on a fairly nice day (for a change). The score is what it is.
Punched Greens
All playing the same conditions, so competitively not a problem, agreed.
I was very happy to get out after so long and have a great day
Hitting so many good shots on a reasonable day weather wise, was great. Easter has arrived and will next play after it. Hope that you get out soon again. Happy Easter.
topping
that was me to a Tee yesterday and couldn't figure it out. Thanks Surge, you nailed my problem.
Shot Shaping and the PPGS
I recently was introduced to a method of shot shaping that was one of the simplest explanations I've seen. It basicaly involves two steps (1) align the club face square to the target/ball (2) align your body (vertical alignment) right of the target (for a draw) and execute your normal swing. Would this method be compatible with the PPGS?
yes
Nelson,
In brief that is correct. Club is aimed at the target and body where you need the ball to start- right or left. In effect the club face is closed for a draw and open for a fade. For extra curve stand slightly closer for a slice and stand slightly further away from the ball for a hook while aiming more right or left respectively club face more closed or open. all of this takes experimentation and practice.
This idea of 'working the ball' is covered very completely in Surges 'Working the ball" video lesson which you can purchase in Surge's shop (above).
Here is an article that also covers these concepts in brief;
https://www.swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/working-ball-part-2
Working the ball
As Robert said, basically yes. Every ball flight law that applies to any other swing would apply to the PPGS.
The ball has no clue what kind of swing delivered the club head to the ball. Only two things matter for imparting side spin. The direction the club head is travelling at impact and the direction the club face is pointing.
One thing to keep in mind. The direction the club face is pointing is much more dominant in creating the starting direction of the ball than the direction of the swing path.
In other words if you are trying to hook or slice the ball around an obstacle the club head needs to be travelling further right (for a hook) or left (for a slice) than you actually intend the ball to start on or you will hit the obstacle because the club face angle will override the direction the club head is travelling.
So true
I have had a lot of challenging shots where I had to hook it or slice it come off well. When it happens as pictured and planned it is too cool. However as you mentioned, the face can effects the starting direction more than one plans for. I have had many a tree say 'no no buddy not this time'. Indeed in those cases it was a case of the face angle set too severe to initially clear the obstacle. I think the other mistake I'll make on occasion is when purposely hooking I will hit too close to the hosel. Not quite a hosel rocket but just enough to cause the ball to fly straight or on the line of the path and not the face at all. So I have found more success making sure I set up with the ball off the toe half of the club for a hook. I know you have said that the draw and hook are natural for you. The slice was always my natural shot, lol:) so I always feel rewarded for drawing or hooking when I need to. It's fun when it goes as planned and executed. Now if I need to slice or fade, no problem in most cases. I am grateful that I rarely slice any more. (Thanks Surge) Now most of my shots are straight to a slight fade.
Draws and fades
Funny thing is that although my natural swing produces a draw I am more accurate (and have a higher percentage of success) hitting fades and slices.
Pretty weird but I figure I just concentrate more since it's not my natural shot.
Hitting both fades and draws were always the easiest part of the game for me, and I could hit either one from the first day I ever hit a golf ball out in the yard. To me the club face was just a ping pong paddle on the end of a longer stick and I curved it right or left the same way.
If only the routine straight shots had come that naturally I might have been a decent golfer by now. LOL
Opposite is true for some.....
Of course as a natural fader (that's code for slicer lol:) I have to concentrate more to pull off the hook and draw. Likewise it often is cause for some spectacular shots that leave me feeling I should 'hook' it a;ll the time and just pretend that there is an obstacle like a big tree in front of me. Try as I may it is difficult to do with any consistency unless the real tree is in my way. that ping pong visual is a good one Steve. Likewise with tennis. Yes, of course it is the simple straight shot that can be the toughest. I know there were (and are) many pros who will almost never hit a straight ball flight on purpose. Like Bubba. If they couldn't curve nearly every shot they wouldn't be able to play a lick. Both Jack and Lee nearly always faded the ball, especially off the tee while Casper was a hooker big time. Of course the fade is easier to control for most and has the least roll out and that is why Jack and many others pros learned to perfect it when possible.
Bent Elbow at Impact
You hit it dead on. Lee Westwood's habit of bending his arm just before impact may be the reason why is not winning tournaments recently. He must tighten up and that bent arm causes thin shots. (I don't think I have ever seen him top a ball.)
DH Torture Drill
Thanks for passing this on to the rest of us DH. I have been using it inside with the SwingRite and am getting good results on increasing head speed and unit release set points. I need some serious work on my full 3/4swing this Spring, as I can click a higher setting with a half swing than a 3/4 swing. I kind of think it's in the very beginning of my FUS and trying to manipulate the club, rather than just let it fall, bump, and then swing through. I am giving up power at the start of my FUS and not getting it back before contact is made.
On a brighter note, I think Spring is finally arriving in Ohio this week. Hopefully, mucho golf in the coming days and weeks ahead. I would have liked to get out on Easter weekend, but too many prior commitments. Hopefully some range time and actual play later in the week.
Ice Thaw
Terry,
Happy to hear that the mid-west to north-east USA is finally getting close to an ice thaw and there may be a summer on the way after all. Many of my clients have been from frozen lads such as Ohio and say spring hasbeen slow in coming and they are more than ready for some warmer days. All that will mean golf for you pal. Good to know you're getting some in door swinging in and soon you'll get to play out side with the other kids:)
DH Torture Drill
Terry, Just saw this. Yep it works for me. Proof that often quicker and longer in the swing is not necessarily going to give us more distance. I noted on it's first and only outing so far [due to other committments], that distances were more consistent and accuracy too. Keep on going with the Swingrite and good luck with an early spring so you can have a real round of golf on the hallowed turf. DH