Timing & Tempo Are A Team

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 12:00 -- Don Trahan

Today I want to discuss the relationship between timing and tempo. Some golfers may confuse one with the other, but in actuality, they must work as a team. 

Randy Wolf is a solid player who I've worked with in the past. He's even been up to visit Doc Griffin for a club fitting, so I know that he understands all that we're trying to teach. However, he's having an issue with his timing whenever he tries to increase his power by swinging the club faster.

Don,

I have a question pertaining to tempo versus swing speed (more power) when hitting my irons. I hit my driver, fairway metals and Doc’s hybrids really good.
I find that for me to strike the ball solid I must really watch my tempo (swing speed). If I try to increase my swing speed - tempo to generate more club head speed which should equal more power and distance - I hit it thin or weak right.  As you know I am a ¾ vertical swinger and try to use centrifugal force to generate speed. I want to get to my pop tart T-finish position but I if I increase my speed = transition too fast, I have poor results. Any Thoughts? Can you also touch on tempo versus rhythm with the PPGS?

Thank you,
Randy Wolf

Okay, let's start by defining tempo and timing. Tempo is the speed or rhythm of your golf swing. Many folks have been told that the tempo in their golf swing and the way in which they manage their way around a golf course tends to match their overall personality. What type of player do you all think that makes me? Fast or slow?

Timing is the proper sequential movement of the parts of the body. It's sort of a kinematic sequence that provides your power.

I think Randy's timing is getting off when he tries to hit the ball harder. Anytime this happens, it can cause you to bump too soon and get out of position. Or, if you're trying to swing your arms faster, you may be moving ahead of the ball. Either way, you're not going to hit the ball farther.

I really think that both tempo and timing are equally important. You can't really play golf with one if you don't have the other.

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

Comments

Kevin McGarrahan's picture

Submitted by Kevin McGarrahan on

Surge, were you watching me practice today? You were describing exactly what I was doing incorrect; however, it took me a lot longer to figure it out than you did to describe it ;-)

I was hitting shots with my 12* 2-Metal and I knew I was getting ahead because I was hitting the ball just off the top edge of the face. My shots were going like I had used a lob wedge. Twice I slid the club completely under the ball, hitting the tee forward about 10 yards, and leaving the ball sitting where the tee had been. Once I slowed down to my normal, relaxed tempo, I started hitting towering, long shots over 40-foot trees out into a field. Unfortunately, it took me about 50 balls to figure it out.

charlieplaysgolf's picture

Submitted by charlieplaysgolf on

Kevin, what you describe sounds like an example of something that sports science calls the trade -off between speed and precision. Basically, it says that an individual generally has an ideal between speed of action and precision of execution. Within limits, if a person swings faster, precision generally goes lower. If you want more precision, generally you have to swing slower. Fortunately, this seems to only be limited by available resources, and if we increase our resources, then we can increase both speed and precision. You see this in a wide range of sports. You even see this in the instructions from teaching pros, where one says to swing as fast as you natural rhythms want to swing, and work to improve precision, and the other says to slow down the swing to the point that you gain precision, and practice to swing faster.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Still working on trying to get the lag of the shaft to cover my right forearm at some point on the way down and hinge off of that position through the ball.

Closer but progress is in increments instead of leaps and bounds.

I also let a couple of other things slip in my efforts, but that's no surprise either.

Maybe tomorrow will be the day it all comes together. Ha ha! (Fat chance).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M2urcSsnzk

NeilofOZ's picture

Submitted by NeilofOZ on

Steve, looking good from where I stand, can you please tell me your thought/mechanical processes that you are implementing to achieve this, would love to know.

Tempo & Timing - Only last night I was practising on the course by myself and realised the importance of these two words. Having a hypo personality
I tend to loose these two elements at times, so I kept on talking to myself
between shots to slow just a fraction and get a better rhythm, when I did
this, I unleashed power & accuracy, well done Surge.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Anything and everything Neil.

Hard to describe in a way that I'm sure can be understood but I am thinking of establishing an angle relationship between the shaft and my right forearm in the back swing and keeping that same realtionship until my right upper arm gets to vertical just before impact.

Still a ways to go but it is certainly a lot closer now than a couple of days ago, and I'm actually starting to think there's hope for what I'm trying to do. In the past with the mechanics of my swing there was no possibilty of getting to that position. I basically just got pretty good at hitting the ball the wrong way.

I'm tired of being stalled out and since every other golfer in the world that's any good at all covers the back forearm with the shaft on the way down it's about time I joined them.

NeilofOZ's picture

Submitted by NeilofOZ on

Steve, just been making comparisons on your video, DJ's and some of mine with regard to shaft/arm angles at setup, then at impact. With the longer clubs, DJ is pretty much similar at both whereas you and me are a straight line from shoulder to the ball at impact. This has alerted me why I must becoming up on the FUS as the only way I can make contact with the ball is to increase the length between me and the ball, otherwise I would miss, the brain must be sending some dire urgent messages to stand-up, otherwise I would be shanking the ball continually, which I don't. May be I should working on this aspect first.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Trying to keep from raising my spine angle up so much at impact is what got me on the road to figuring out what I needed to do to stop it.

After looking at hundreds of videos of golfers that don't have my problem, the answer was very clear. I decided I was not only putting the cart before the horse, but trying to fix the cart when the horse has run off to the next county.

I had a car with a broken pistons and I was putting in new spark plugs, new headlights, new brake pads, and new tires and then wondering why none of that fixed the car.

Came to the conclusion that once the shaft covers the right forearm it will be much more simple for everything else to fall in place, and without it there is absolutely no chance for those other things to ever fall into place.

The choice is pretty clear. Be satisfied to be a mediocre golfer and keep on the way I have been or fix it and at least give myself the chance to improve.

NeilofOZ's picture

Submitted by NeilofOZ on

Steve, good point, but I'm not one of those that is happy with mediocrity so
from my personal perspective I could think of severel things that may help, 1. "Butt to ball as long as possible" 2. "Dropping of the arms/elbows" 3. "Elbow to RH hip as quickly as possible". Maybe some or all, so I'll do some
experimenting and look forward to future comments from you as well.

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard on

Here is perhaps a clue that worked for me. My grip was too much in the palms which affected the set up. It made me stand too tall and swing the club on the BUS too far inside. To get back to the ball and hit it I would have to stand up through impact with really poor results. A really steep FUS.

The cure from a PPGS teacher was to get the left hand grip more in the fingers. This lead to tilting more to the ball at the set up which in turn lead to a more vertical BUS. At the transition to the FUS it went from flat and steep to steeper and looping into the flatter plane that covered the right arm like you are trying to get to.

What I see in your videos is the swing inside and at the change of direction the change to a much steeper release plane. Not exactly over the top but a similar move.

Hope this might be a help. A Steve Smith fan of your journey and willingness to put your swing out there for all to see.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Yeah, how deep my back swing is, or how far around my body I go, or don't go, seems to be unrelated to what I'm trying to do.
(And I've tried it all).

Keep in mind that this is all experimentation:

The one and only thing that shows any signs of working at all is to make a move at the beginning of the BUS that looks like a Jason Dufner waggle where I manipulate the club head to the inside. (Surge also uses a very similar waggle to Dufner).

That can be done with the hands well out in front of my body or more behind my body. One doesn't make any more difference on the way down than the other.

That sets the course of the club head arc in a direction that allows it to come closer to the right position on the way down. It seems to be totally unrelated to how far around my body the BUS goes (although while experimenting around it "feels" like I come closer if I go deeper but the feeling is only an illusion).

The videos when I get done with a practice show that very often swings that I thought had to be close were actually worse than some swings that I thought were not close at all.

The only bright side is that through it all I am still hitting the ball just fine on the course and actually come surprisingly close to what I want. Here is my last outing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDlbSyqtPgU

P.S. My grip is nowhere near my palms. In fact the biggest difference in my grip from all of the golfers I know is that my grip is much more in my fingers than any of them. Sometimes I'm tempted to put it more in my palms like they do because some of those guys are quite a bit better than I am so what they are doing seems to be working just fine for them. My son (180 degrees opposite from me) has the club more in his palms than any golfer I have ever seen but somehow it works for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQfIlE7e9pU

tom47penn49@verizon.net's picture

Submitted by tom47penn49@ver... on

Steve, I have read your several posts today on the right arm and I have no idea what you are talking about. I know you are PPGS guy. I don't have any concept of what you are describing and how it fits with Don's technique. Can you elaborate? Maybe think explaining to a third grader. I don't understand the positions you are referring to.

TK

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Don't feel like a third grader TK. Since I made up the term (because that's the only way I know how to describe it) nobody would have a much clue what I'm talking about.

I made this video to show it. Just as it sounds at some point in the down swing from a down the line view the shaft will "cover" the right forearm from our view. From there it stays in line with that forearm until it releases through the ball.

You can see that all of these players do it (and I could have used hundreds more) and I clearly wasn't even coming close at any point.

It's not a PPGS thing or exclusive to any other swing. The only thing it seems to be exclusive to is all good players including both Surge and DJ.

Really aggravating to me that I still can't do it (yet). Ha ha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir_FkxzH-eo

tom47penn49@verizon.net's picture

Submitted by tom47penn49@ver... on

Thanks Steve. Now I see what you mean.

TK

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Steve,
I watched the video and ask a question. It is difficult to tell from the angle of the video, but is the angle between the clubshaft and your lead arm a straight line up to the shoulder? As I said hard to judge but it didn't look so.
First Virus I have had in years just on the wane. So was reading a book, in particular on the basics of setup, mindful of Surge's 'The set up determines the motion' rattling around in my skull. I had not been hitting my driver to my satisfaction. After reading the basic set up tip [as the book said to give the best position to start the swing], I set up in front of the full length mirror in the bedroom. Used alignment arrows etc. Set up with my normal setup procedure, took note of body position. Then repeated the set up detailed in the book. I noticed the difference immediately. In my set up there was a distinct angle from the ball position to the shoulder!!! at the juncture of the grip and top of the club shaft. Then I set up as the book directed. Difference? From the ball position with the club set off my left heel, there was a dead straight line between the ball position and my lead shoulder. Everything else was parallel. Only swinging on the course will give me the definitive answer, but I am sure it could be one of the causes of my less than acceptable drives.
If I am in error on your set up, please accept my apologies in advance.
DH

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

At set up my left arm is hanging down pretty close to vertical below my shoulder while the club shaft is angled to the ball from the down the line view we see. In a perfect world (with a perfect swing) the angle of both my left arm (vertical) and the club shaft would be the same (or at least very close) at impact as they were at address. If you paused DJ's swing at impact those angles would be very close to what he had at address (most people are not, including me, and even Surge). Even some people like Hogan, that returned the shaft at impact to the same angle as address, didn't have the front arm vertical at impact but got around that by having the shoulders open more at impact so the left arm was not vertical but extending a little across the chest.

In this video the position of my left arm at impact is fairly pathetic, and nowhere near vertical, and extended WAY too much toward the ball. Maybe I can fry that fish after I solve my other problem.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Thanks for the run down on my comment. It was your left arm before and at impact I was querying. The face on view would have confirmed or disproved my thoughts after viewing your swing. Your explanation answers most of what I thought.
Have just had a swing session on the grass at the front of the house. Warmed up with PW and 6iron and then set up with the driver. Using the set up in the book, as opposed to my usual set up of late. Without hitting balls it is difficult to judge the swing completely. Having said that, I found it easier whipping the driver through up to the T finish in balance. In the many swings, not one 'heavy' shot. All swings just burned the grass through the impact area. Quite clear to see the big dog, was On-On-On! before, thru' and after impact. Will be champing at the bit to get back on the course to try it out for real. Some days away so viewing the Masters and 'dry' swinging will have to suffice. Chipping with all three clubs was fun and good practice. Might start putting with the driver hahaha.
Thanks again Steve. The term covering your forearm on the way down threw me to start with.
Hope that you fry all the fish soon. DH

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Joke not recieved.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Glad it made you feel better Steve. My only comment is the position of your head posture wise in the comparison photograph. Your head seems to be looking straight down in the picture. From an anatomical point of view, this could severely restrict your neck and shoulder muscles during the swing.
Remember Surge's comments about the head being elevated with the chin off the chest and looking down at the ball with the eyes and not restriction to allow the neck and shoulder muscles to remain flexible?
This is not a criticism of your photo, but it doesn't look right. I know the head 'falls' back a little but the angle of your neck compared to Jack's seems out of kilter.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I'm working on something and not looking for a critque of things that I couldn't care less about.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

I made my comment in good faith as a staunch Surge advocate who thought there may be a 'body unfriendly fault in your swing.Your waspish comment was most unexpected. I have valued some of your tips in the past. Now Expect NO MORE comments on anything else you add to the site. Good luck with your swing and may you achieve your goal. DH

ronniethebogieman's picture

Submitted by ronniethebogieman on

WOW

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Good luck to you too.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I don't blame him. He thought I needed help and I thought I didn't.
That's all.

Unless of course somebody can demonstrate the answer to what I'm actually working on and how to do it, but I figure I'm on my own on that one.

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard on

Hope my response higher up in this blog might be a guiding post.

Cowboy in a kilt's picture

Submitted by Cowboy in a kilt on

Surge

I find that if I increase my tempo (swing speed) without a corresponding change in my timing, I always hit it right and usually slice it. This is my take on what causes that. If my tempo and timing are working properly, then my club face is square when it gets back to the ball. If I increase my tempo without changing my timing, then my club face is still open when it gets back to the ball. If my timing is set up to get the club face square to the ball on a tempo of 1.5 seconds, and I change my tempo to 1.4 seconds without changing the timing, then I am still .1 second from square when the club face gets back to the ball.

What I have found to get around that problem, is that in those occasions where I need to increase my tempo for a shot, I will swing 2 or 3 practice shots at the increased tempo to get the appropriate adjustment made to my timing. That makes it easier for me to make sure the club face is square to the ball. If I try to "lean on" a shot without those practice swings, then I am back to pushing the ball to the right, and pizza golf.

Dick

michaelemaser@gmail.com's picture

Submitted by michaelemaser@g... on

Dick,

When I try to "lean on" a shot, I find myself pulling the ball to the left. I think this is caused by opening up too fast, and swaying forward at impact. What I try to do is keep my head behind the ball, and relax my arms and shoulders to increase more fluidity in my swing. It usually works on my "do over" shot, however, when playing for real, "Bubba" doesn't get a turn unless there's no other way to stay in play. I only wish I were smart enough to realize that slow and steady does win the race, and fast and furious only gets you in trouble. Mike

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

When I first started playing golf (and didn't have a clue what I was doing) the only thing I brought to the table was that I could hit the ball a long way, and surprisingly straight with a driver.

About that time I was watching a clip of Fred Couples and he was on a tee box and he said "Now I'm going to hit this one as hard as I can."

He took what looked like the same swing he always takes and then he said "That's all I've got".

I thought to myself, heck Fred you didn't even swing at it, and you certainly didn't come out of your shoes like I do when I try to "hit it as hard as I can".

Funny thinking back on that now that I understand that "as hard as I can" meant something else entirely to Fred than it did to me. "As hard as I can" to him meant with an actual golf swing where to me it meant gritting my teeth and whirling through the ball with no control at all, and seeing every cloud in the sky long before impact, and coming completely out of both shoes.