There are a lot of other golf websites that are available online, and some provide tips and drills like we do here. The only difference is that this is the only place where you can go to learn the body friendly swing known as the Peak Performance Golf Swing. We have a great community of dedicated vertical swingers and I think that's what separates us from other sites.
Kenneth King uses the PPGS, but he also receives newsletters from other golfing outlets. He saw a tip on another site and knew that it did not relate to the PPGS, but he wanted to know if there was a way that he could still use it to improve.
I get other golf newsletters as well, though I practice the PPGS method. They just sent a video about putting a tee in the end of the club (driver or whatever) and one about two feet behind the ball/tee to check to see if the club shaft is in the right position three quarters of the way through the swing. Their point is that the arms should be in an "L" position, the wrists cocked and the tee in the end of the shaft should be pointing at the tee about two feet behind the ball on the tee. So, here is the question: Where would we put the tee in the ground in relationship to the ball for PPGS? It seems like it should be about two feet behind the ball but half way between the toe and the target line...
Think this would be a good tip for us to check our shaft alignment/position pretty easily...
Kenneth King
Kenneth is on the right track. He knows that the tee will have to be in a different spot on the ground because of the fact that we swing on a vertical incline plane. The tip that he saw was most likely referring more to a flatter swing. In our case, the tee that's on the ground should actually be near the toe line, since we're swinging as close to straight up and down as we can.
So, at the top of your swing, the tee in the end of the club should point down to the toe line or behind it. If you're able to do that, you'll notice the difference between swinging a "light" club versus swinging a "heavy" club.
Great observations Ken! You knew that the tee had to be closer to the toe line, you just didn't go far enough. Check out the video and you'll all see where the tee in the end of my club points.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
If you can't view the YouTube video above try CLICKING HERE. You must allow popups from this site for the link to work.
Comments
Tee in the end of the grip?
Thankyou for clarifying this point Surge. I have already have a tee in the butt end of all my clubs all the time ; - ) So half way there to checking. I keep them there so that should it rain [when does it ever not at the moment here?], and water pools in the bottom of the bag, the tees help to stop the clubs taking on water through the hole in the butt of the grip.
I have an almost redundant laser pointer which I will use indoors to check out my alignment plane at the top of the lift. Now in the FUS, isn't there a change of plane in the downswing part of the swing? Where should the tee point then? DH
FUS and the 'tee'
DH, been thinking about your question on where the tee should be pointing in the down swing part of the swing. In reality, we know that in better golfers' swings like Surges and DJ's the club does lay off in the bump transition. This inevitably has that tee in grip end aimed out beyond the feet from bump to just before impact.
The reason for this as ideal is that it aids in coming from the inside agin like all really good golfers do.
In this one the 'tee' would actually be at or outside the target line.
Personally, thinking about where to aim the tee in the forward swing would be too much for my pea brain. It all happens in less a millisecond. I can do a slow FUS and feel the positions in slow motion. I do need to feel the butt end aimed more out beyond the feet (along with and or the right elbow close to the right hip) to assist in avoiding the ever present impulse to come over the top. Really the main thing I will think about is swing up. Just focusing on swinging up and not left and across is all I can handle in actual speed forward. I will practice the advice from todays vid though and see if it helps in getting vertical.
FUS and the tee peg
Robert, Many,many thanks for your in depth answer and the links. I thought I had saved them previously, obviously not, or didn't register on my febrile brain : - ( Brilliant explanation, so that even I can understand it hahaha!
Just had a quick swing on the deck and 'bog', boy is it wet! Then sun still shining, it rained hahaha.
On the laser? I have now got to remember where I put it : - ) On today's video on 'Putting and Eyesight'. I stopped playing with my graduated lenses and bought a pair of single lens. Then stopped wearing them altogether on the course. Even the other day when I played 9.5 holes on my own, I never lost a ball : - ) Will check when putting but don't seem to have a problem with direction at all. Have reverted to my old Ping Zero3 putter for the next outing. I will now before lunch go and look out the laser. Here's hoping.
On your problem of getting up, I find if not careful I start my BUS with a cross swing,ie, half rotational, half Lift!!! As soon as I lift almost immediately with the rear arm [crease of rear arm if it had a knitting needle across the crease, would pass through the upper part of the forearm. It aids lift and skipping the rock through impact and up to the T finsih and recoil], lifting the lead arm and club and it all just seems to happen.
Keep on keeping on and thankyou again for your valuable input. DH in Wooooah! the sun is out again, BYeeeeee!
Laser light
Since my wife has moved my laser light that I used in the butt end of my clubs from where I left it in the middle of the kitchen table, (right where it belongs), and she doesn't remember what she did with it, I haven't used it in a while to run the toe line.
Hmmm...May be why I played my worst golf of the year today. That's as good an excuse as any I suppose. Not sure how I'm going to tie in the 5 birdie putts that I left dead in the middle but a few inches short with my missing laser but I'll figure out a way to blame her for those too. ;-)
I heard Gary McCord say that a golfer has to blame something or somebody besides themselves when they play badly; the caddy, the course, or anything.
He said when a golfer starts blaming themselves they might as well quit.
Laser
I was trying to find the videos yesterday of Surge talking about "running the toe line" and your own practice session with the laser light. I need to get back to that myself. Fortunately, my new apartment has a cathedral ceiling in the living room. As long as I avoid smacking my practice club into my flat screen, I'll be fine.
Laser
I deleted a lot of those old videos a while back.
Wish I could find my laser but it appears to be gone. Things have a way of disapearing around here. I had a brand new pair of tennis shoes a few months ago and I wore them one time and then they disapeared off of the face of the earth.
My wife walks in her sleep a lot and I figure she throws things in the trash in her sleep.
I went to a lot of trouble to make a plastic base for that laser that inserted into the end of a grip snugly enough that I could actually hit balls with it, so getting another one like it is more trouble than just buying another one.
The laser really does work very well and gives feedback that doesn't lie.
Backswing with woods
Hi Don,
I am not having much success with fairway woods, as I am not sure whether to sweep the ball, as I try to do with my driver off the tee, or whether to use a more vertical PPGS, which has helped me a lot with iron play. Could you please advise?
Many thanks,
Doug
Vertical?
Whether to use a vertical swing should have nothing to do with which club you are using.
With a driver to catch the ball as the club is ascending the ball is slightly forward of the bottom of the swing. To hit it higher use a little more spine tilt. Both can be done with the same vertical swing.
Shorter clubs are played with the ball further back so the ball is struck before the bottom of the swing.
Same swing, just catching the ball at different points in the swing.
Personally the longer the club the more I sweep the ball.
With a sand wedge I am likely to have a shallow divot (just enough to have to repair it with sand).
With a mid iron I am likely to tear some grass out of the ground but not move any dirt (rarely might have to add some sand).
With a long iron I am likely to cut some grass off above the ground but not leave a noticeable divot (only would leave a repairable divot from a bad lie).
With fairway woods from good lies not likely to leave a mark at all.
And of course with a driver I am catching the ball on the way up.
Driver Loft Adjustments
Don this video was right on time as I was just thinking about a laser light I used to have when I was first learning the rotational swing. Thanks for clearing that confusion up for us. My question is on the loft of the driver. What is the best loft for PPGS and why? My current driver is 10.5. Thanks in advance.
Lofty question
I don't mean this in a sniping way, but asking what the best driver loft is for a PPGS swing is a nonsensical question. Whether you're using PPGS or Stack & Tilt or any of the various breeds of rotational swing, the best loft for a driver for you is based on your body and the way it moves, not on the swing theory you're applying. Surge uses a 10.5 degree driver. I use a 9 degree driver. Having had the pleasure to play a few holes with him, I can tell you that he and I hit the ball on almost identical trajectories (as long as you discount my repeatedly aiming too far right).
This sort of question comes up all the time, and Doc Griffin has repeatedly explained to all of us that the swing theory you use does not change the dynamics of the clubs you should play. The ONLY part of club selection it changes is that you have to be sure your clubs are not too long for you when using a vertical swing like the PPGS. A flat rotational swing will allow you to play with longer-shafted clubs, with the attendant loss of control of the club head.
Nonsensical
You could have kept that bitch ass answer to yourself. Don I surely hope this fool doesn't work for PPGS!!!
Answer
Robert's answer was right on the money. The only thing that determines which loft any of us need is our individual swing. How much club head speed we have and what our angle of attack through the ball is.
There is not a certain loft that works for a certain style of swing.
Steve since the PPGS is based
Steve since the PPGS is based on physics, I would think that a better answer is around. You nor the fool who replied earlier know what daily videos I have or have not viewed. So it may be nonsensical to you guys.
Nonsensical
That wasn't my word but I'm just saying that the type of swing doesn't determine loft. Neither does the position of the laser light in the back swing.
As the club is coming down and the right elbow gets near the right side all good players look very similar with the shaft angle through the ball from a DTL view. Here is a comparison between some good players, including Surge, and some of my older swings (not so good).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir_FkxzH-eo
Some lead more with the hands, which makes them need more loft.
Some have more club speed, which makes them require less loft.
Some are descending at impact and others are ascending.
All three variables determine which loft we need, and all three change from player to player with a PPGS or any other swing.
Maximum Driver Performance
I think what you guys should be saying is that once a student understands and trust the PPGS, they should then be checked by a PGA professional to make sure they have the proper driver for their new grooved swing. For me, the video regarding the position of the laser light/tee in the back swing connected some dots that I hadn't connected over the last 2.5 years since I've been learning the PPGS. So now that I understand, trust and can feel completely what Don is teaching, I should be re-fitted for my driver in order to approach maximum performance. Thanks.
Not just any PGA Pro
I know Doc Griffin would say that you shouldn't wait to have a grooved swing to get a proper fitting. He'd also tell you, and I heartily concur, that you shouldn't just go to any PGA professional to get a properly fit driver because most of them don't really understand the physiology of individual swings and how to translate that into the optimum clubs for the player. That's why you should always go to a true, professional fitter and builder--someone who not only has the tools and experience to help you find the right clubs for you, but will actually build those clubs to spec--something that you cannot get buying off-the-rack or going for a "fitting" to a big box store where all they're going to do is tell you which of the sets they have on the shelf they think will fit you best.
You really can't properly groove any swing until you have clubs that fit you and will react consistently to your actions (not a given with off-the-rack clubs where shafts are not only not FLOed for minimal off-plane vibration, but likely aren't even all the same shaft profile, no matter what they say on them).
Sorry if I came off badly this morning. I can be a know-it-all, but I really was not trying to be offensive.
That doesn't make sense dude.
That doesn't make sense dude. If you change your swing, you should make certain that the clubs are optimized for the new swing not the old one. That's just common sense man.
Swing or body
You've changed the swing theory you're using. You haven't changed the body you're swinging with. But don't take my word for it. Go watch Doc Griffin's last Doctor's House Call and read his comments following it.
https://www.swingsurgeon.com/daily-video-tips/what-club-fitting-does-not-do
That video is all fine and
That video is all fine and dandy but it appears to me that the manner in which I swing the club would affect the measurements obtained when I was being fitted. When I got fitted for my clubs, I did not fully understand vertical versus rotational swinging. If what you and Doc are saying is true, all you would have to know was a persons height, weight, etc... You would not have to take any measurements of the persons current swing. Is that what you are attempting to argue in favor of?
Not at all
No, I'm not saying that all you need to know is a person's vital statistics. A golf swing is a dynamic thing, so you need to see the way a person's physiology works in motion, but no matter what you think about different swing theories, they all attempt to get you to the same place through impact. It's a matter of which way gets you there most consistently and with the greatest transfer of energy to the ball. But the basic way you or I or any other individual loads a shaft and releases through impact and so on will not change based on the swing theory. Your lie angles don't need to be flatter because you use a flat swing or more upright because you use a vertical swing. You're fitting the person and how they move, and the elements of that which matter in fitting do not change based on the particular golf guru the player listens to.
Different swings
As you can see from the video I posted it doesn't make much difference whether you use a rotational swing or a vertical swing the club position through the ball isn't going to change much. The difference is in the delivery system that gets us to that point.
One uses mostly body turn and one uses mostly arm action to get to the point in the pictures.
It's futile to try to learn any swing with the wrong clubs, especially clubs that are too long. All that does is make us groove some very bad habits to try to make it work.
The exception to that is that if a player is flipping at the ball and letting the club head pass the hands before impact the correct loft for that player will be harder to judge, assuming the player will fix that flaw.
A good fitter will see that flaw and try to help the player with it during the fitting and/or take into account the possibility that once that is corrected the ball flight will be lower.
Could a player pick a loft based on a really bad swing and find out that it's the wrong loft if they turned it into a really good swing?
I would say absolutely... But that's better than using the wrong club from the start and never even having the best oportunity to develop a really good swing at all.
Having to get a new driver based on the fact that my swing just got ENTIRELY TOO GOOD for my old driver would be a badge of honor for me!!!!! Ha ha!
My fitting was based on my
My fitting was based on my measurements as well the launch angle I was hitting at the time, club head speed and other factors I thought. If I then modify the manner in which I swing the clubs, it appears that I may get different swing results during a fitting. If not then testing a golfer's swing during a fitting is a useless exercise.
Thanks for the discussion
Thanks for the discussion. I will be attending one of the classes in Illinois in June and have been wondering if I should be fitted before or after the class. The discussion has convinced me that any potential swing adjustment made in the class will not affect the parameters used in fitting the clubs.
Shaft angle before impact
Steve , your video is very interesting and provides a good checkpoint to look for when trying to optimize the pre impact position. Most of the checkpoints of the Surge swing can be acheived if the setup is good and the visualizations of the swing work for the individual. This however, is a dynamic part of the swing that takes place so quickly that it can only be seen if a player has good video analyses available. I haven't a clue how a player could consciously integrate this position with the forward upswing. I assume that, as you get better at acheiving this shaft lean the ball striking improves, so it is a worthy goal. You have been working on this for a while and getting better at it. Is there anything that you have been doing related to setup or swing thought changes that thas been working for you.
Thanks,
Dave
Position
Not doing well at all. Just about the time I think I'm getting somewhere my ball striking goes away. Funny thing is that with practice swings and no ball it looks very good...Very frustrating!!!!!
All I can tell you so far is that two things that certainly DO NOT work for me are more shoulder turn and laying the club off at the top. Yep, I tried that out of desperation. As Surge always says that only made me come over the top.
The "secret" that both Surge and DJ achieve so easily that I haven't been able to replicate is moving their right elbow inward toward their left elbow very fast at the start of the down swing.
Edit: Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bIp17jprI8
I can feel like I'm doing that but the video always shows that I am certainly not.
One of those things where knowing how they do it and actually doing it are two entirely different things.
(Still working on it).
Misapprehension
As I said in opening my comment, I am not attacking you. I am attacking the base premise of your question: that the optimum loft for a driver could be determined by the swing theory being used independent of any individual's physiology.
I've asked lots of questions that, in retrospect when I had a greater understanding, I knew had been nonsensical at their core. It happens. It is not an attack on your intelligence or character to tell you that your premise was flawed.
Ignorance
You are clearly someone who has time to worship every daily video. I don't. I watched a recent video and it made me realize a position in the back swing. Clearly some physics comes into play and I'm asking to relate the two concepts. Laser light position and driver club loft...
None
Very simply, there is no specific relationship. Loft is determined by individual physiology, not by the path of the club head to the top, where that top position is, or what swing theory you're using to get it there.
Y & L Drill in PPGS
Don et al,
A light just came on... I think. Now that you've described where the laser light should be pointing in the backswing, the old Y & L drill makes much more sense to me and becomes essential once again to my practice routine. The "L" just happens naturally without having to cock your wrist. Do you agree?
Driver Loft selection
Your driver loft selection will be determined by your personal specs and not the type of swing you use. This article offers some guide lines in choosing the best driver loft for yourself. There are many variables to consider, however the type of swing you are using is not one of them.
http://golftips.golfsmith.com/correct-loft-golf-driver-1316.html
So you do not need to see the
So you do not need to see the person's swing to fit them for clubs and/or a driver? All you need is their measurements...
Driver fitting
http://wishongolf.com/twgt-books/
Tom Wishon's "Search for the Perfect Driver" and
"The Search for the Perfect Golf Club"
For anyone serious about an easy way to understand yet deep enough to get lots of great information on understanding golf clubs, these are two great books.
I refer to them frequently. One of the interesting things about the modern 460cc driver head is that there is no consistency as far as lofts. And I am referring to The vertical loft on the entire face. This is effected by vertical roll or vertical curvature. In other words if 11 degrees is indicated on the club head, there is actually only a tiny section normally at the very center of the club face that is 11 degrees. From the center down on the lower portion of the face it could be 10 degrees. On the upper part north of the center there will be more loft, say 11.5, 12, 12.5, even 13 as you hit closer to the top of the face. This is why many golfers hit it higher and longer when they hit it off the upper part of the face. Studies show that most amateur golfers do hit off the upper half most of the time. Manufacturers know this and so it is no accident that most of us are actually hitting with more loft than is stated on the head. EMO's know that the ego's of many golfers do not let them use drivers that are 18,17,16,14,13, or even 12 degrees. Most are using a lot more loft than they know. This is a feature built in to all drivers and again it is called roll or vertical roll. Here is an interesting discussion on GolfSpy.
In this article it shows that lofts are normally higher to much higher than indicated with some companies like Cobra being the biggest offenders.
http://www.mygolfspy.com/mygolfspy-labs-the-worst-kept-secret-in-golf/
We all love talking about the driver because we all want to find more distance. This fascination never gets old. Those two books I mentioned above are always on my most recommended list. Even if one is going to have their clubs fit and built by a fitter all should do themselves a favor and buy and read both. Amazon.com offers the best price normally.
Edit:
Of course there is always more...................
This article from Ralph Maltby is also telling about driver loft. A key point he makes is that it is ideal to get fit with a launch monitor and or at the range here we can see our actual launch angles. You may use a 9* driver and yet you launch it at 16- 18*. Contrarily you may hit a 12* at 14* of actual loft. To add to matters further is the shaft dynamics. This is why I love my club building garage where tinkering with different heads and shafts is my hobby. still need a monitor though and with the smaller ones becoming more affordable I hope to have one sooner than later:)
http://www.ralphmaltby.com/357
tee in the butt of the club
Good tip!! It is very easy to lay the club off without some visual reference. As an old rotation player, I lay it off a lot without knowing it and hit some lousy shots. This tip makes it much easier to see if the club stays vertical.
Thanks!
Ray Otte
GRIPS
Does anyone (including Don and Doc) have any thoughts on "The Secret Grip" at http://boccierigolf.com/secret-grip/
Thank You,
Steve
GRIPS
Sorry - I forgot to mention they are back weighted grips. So the question should be:
Does anyone have thoughts (including Don and Doc) on back weighted grips like those at http://boccierigolf.com/secret-grip/
Thank You...
Steve
Back Weighting
Hmmmnnn...... Somewhat controversial subject in that it breaks the rules of typical swing weighting thought. When you add weight to the butt end of the club it changes the feel of the club. The head will feel light even though the over all weight of the entire club may be the same or heavier. Basically it is the redistribution of weight. For example, many golfers may be fit for a D-1 and then after back weighting their club(s) may give a C-0 swing weight reading. Some feel they have more control and speed with a lower S/W (heavier grip feel) and others actually feel more control with a lighter grip end and heavier head end. While a lighter head/heavier grip may increase club head speed for some it may increase errant shots for others (or not). So some will find back weighting gives them more control and others will say it makes the club feel way too light (because of the relative light feel of the head).
On a related note; Surge plays with a putter that has a heavier weighted grip end. That feels and performs better for him. i have never heard him recommend a heavier grip in general though. However the Enlows are much heavier than a standard grip too. I think he has one on his putter.
To me it's all a big experiment. That is why I highly recommend getting a club fitting from a qualified (preferably PPGS) club fitter. Then as you grow I experience and understand club dynamics better through study and trial try different grips/shafts and over all dynamics and see what may work even better for you. If and when you get fit take lots of notes, ask lots of questions. Be a tech/gear head nerd. There are so many great books any one can get on golf clubs and fitting. I have recommended several and will do so again.
Now on the back weighting issue, here is my personal experience. When I was fit by Leith Anderson two summers ago it was areal eye opener. He is a bit of a mad scientist and has a tremendous golf lab. He also will play nine holes with you to help understand your golf swing and your golfing goals and commitment.
During the fitting he let me try out the Jumbo max grip. It is twice to nearly 3X the weight of most grips. I liked them immediately and those were the grips he put on my new clubs. Technically he was back weighting my clubs along with giving me a jumbo grip that makes all other jumbos seem tiny. Back then I did not understand swing weight and now realize that he "broke the rules" and that my swing weight on those sticks were now in the C-1 range. Now for my strength and generally aggressive down swing and club head speed these lighter in the head end clubs might have seems wrong. Not. I love them. So sense then I have played around in my garage with adding weight, subtracting weight, using various grips and grip end weights, et. Conclusion? Feel and results are what really matters. You have to try various combinations to see what works for you. When you go to a good fitter that should be your experience. He should allow you to try out many combinations and see what #1, helps you hit the ball solid and straight, and #2 what feels best to you.
I haven't tried the Boccieri grips. My advice would be to buy two and try one on your driver and one on an iron.