Today's "In Your Own Words" comes from Allen Fischer and has to do with posture. The setup determines the motion, so your posture plays a huge role in the success or failure of each shot. Allen's provided a lot of thoughts that work for him in terms of getting into the right position, which is why I decided to share them.
Allen also wanted to know the right amount in which to bend his upper body over the ball. I'll describe how I get in place over the ball, but I'd like you to read what Allen wrote as I believe it has the potential to help a lot of you.
Hi Don,
A couple things on my mind that I hope you find helpful regarding explaining the PPGS. Now that tax season is over, I am finally able to put in some work on my swing.
The issue that is really helping me is the thing you said about how your posture had become too upright and had started squatting a bit instead of just bending over. It dawned on me that this is the key to staying out of the SBG. Think of it this way. If one bends over at the hips to 90 degrees, it is impossible to swing one's arms with a club into the SBG with any sort of natural shoulder turning motion. But, if one stands straight vertical, it is impossible NOT to swing one's arms into the SBG with a golf club in hands.
Second and related obvious observation is that in order to swing up like a pop tart coming out of a toaster, one has to start DOWN in the toaster. One has to be DOWN before one can come UP. Duh. However, with the almost upright posture of most of today's golfers, one cannot come UP since one has never been DOWN. If one starts their swing already UP, the only thing one can do is turn AROUND. This is the rotational swing. In fact, most golfers now seem to have to go DOWN to get to the ball.
The PPGS/VERTICAL golf swing physically requires more of a "bent over" posture/setup than the rotational swing. It looks to me like the pros using the rotational swing want to bend over only the Minimum Amount needed to let their arms hang straight down freely to hold the club. That is why there seems to be a lot of variation of the pros of the angle of their back in their setup.
Tiger, for example, now seems to look a lot more bent over (looks like almost 45 degrees) than say, Sergio, who with his driver is like 80 degrees upright.
Speaking from my experience, I do not think most of us amateurs understand just how much we need to bend over. I have been experimenting with bending over too far and really I am finding it is almost impossible to bend over too far and still hit the ball because my body will come up to a reasonable angle automatically. But, bending over to what in the mirror is about 45 degrees, I am hitting unbelievable shots with much more consistency than ever before and so much easier and less effort and staying out of the SBG.
As you say, the setup determines the motion, so here is the QUESTION:
What is the perfect "bend over from the hips" angle for the PPGS? This should be easily obtainable from drawing some lines off your videos.
Second, How can us students know we are bent over at close to that angle?
(I have thought that maybe I could drop a string down from my forehead and measure the distance from where the string hits the ground to the ball and compare that measurement to yours, or just bend over in front of the mirror)Allen Fischer
I hope today's video provided you with a different perspective on the importance of posture and setup. You need curvature in your back with your hips out so you can lift your arms up and swing up to the T-finish.
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
posture and Inbee Park swing
Just got back from my first round of golf since having knees replaced. Had problems with the sacred burial ground. Think this posture tip might work. Going out in the yard now to try it.
Enjoyed watching the womens golf tournament on TV this weekend. Seems like Inbee Park has a Peak Performance golf swing. Whatdaya think? Was amused that the announcers were talking about how she could improve her game by rotating more. Funny since she smoked the field and tied a record for major wins in a seasonwhich she might break later this season.
Excellent Perspective
I really liked Allen's explanation of the benefit for bending over by tying it to the sacred burial ground and ability to get vertical. I had a lesson with Dave Seeman in Phoenix and that was the key item he identified for me to improve. I was getting myself in the sit down position which I thought was making me more vertical, but instead was creating lack of power and accuracy. I am amazed when I think I am doing something properly and I am not close.
Regarding Inbee, I tuned in and the announcers were discussing her swing and saying she could get more distance if she lengthened her backswing as it was too compact. Even Annika Sorenstam was agreeing to that evaluation. As noted, Inbee is in a league of her own with Babe Zaharias. You can only shake your head. Kevin McCarthy
In Bee Park
Kevin,
I nearly choked with laughter listening to the so called golf pundits at the US ladies Open, when commenting and giving their three cents worth about In Bee's swing. Annika Sorenstam was so biased in her comments that any respect I had for her, vanished. She was as steady as a rock. Even in the 3bogey patch, she bounced back and ploughed forward. The speed of her swing mocks me ; - ) hahaha! She is a constant reminder that I have to slow down my swing. When I do, like I did today, the results speak for themselves. A couple of times today I relapsed into a semi-rotational swing with predictable results. So back to basics and as Surge says: 'Just do it right'! DH
Slow Down
I have the same thought about slowing my swing down during the takeaway as it gives me a better feel of where the club is and when I get to the top. More often, I start racing in the backswing and I ring the bell all over the place and usually end up with my lower body outracing arms and everything being out of sync. I have seen more pros being slow and sure in the backswing and then moving to an accelerated downswing. Thanks DH.
Posture
Lots of good comments from Allen and loved his analogy. Biggest problem I have is coming up during the BUS, my posture position is good at address, but much more vertical when at the top of the BUS and realised that this is what's getting me into the SBG. I can't feel any sensation of coming up and feel it may be too much flexibility due to my wiry frame. Would love to hear any comments from fellow Surgites.
Coming up in the backswing
Overdoing the lifting part of the BUS might account for coming up in the back swing. I don't try to get my hands as high as Surge's and probably couldn't anyway, because as he says, he has very long arms in proportion to his height. Since not trying so hard to get the maximum lift, my arms have been softer at the top and this has resulted in a more fluid transition with better golf shots.
For whatever reason, your knee flex or forward spine angle has to be changing during the BUS, if you are much more vertical at the top. Focusing more on maintaining that 30 degree spine angle, while turning, than getting a lot of lift, may help. If you are very flexible, you may have to engage the core muscles more to maintain the spine angle.
Being very conscious of three things that have to be maintained, at address and while doing the BUS, helps me to have a very steady head and constant spine angle. They are: 1. Weight in the arches, 2. Outward knee pressure, 3. Keeping my tailbone in the address position while rotating around it to the top of the backswing. If you have a hallway, that is the right width, you might try combining the butt against the wall drill, with the baseboard drill, to get the feeling of maintaining a constant spine angle and not getting into the SBG.
Coming Up
DN, Thanks for your comments. Just checked my last video in early June and it clearly shows my upward movement starts immediately and by the time I get to the top of the BUS, my head has already stopped, but well above the position I started. My knees still have outward pressure, only the left moves in just a fraction, just like Dons. My head is back to where it started at impact position but also behind. At one stage I worked hard on the "Butt to Wall" drill and that told me I was in the SGB, but when I tried to remedy it by restricting the lift, my swing was totally out of sequence. I might just have to review that process again. I'm hitting better now, but the odd topping the ball still is with me.
PPGS Minds
Seems we are all on a similar track. I was typing my comment as Dave was finishing his. His thought of you needing to "engage your core muscles" is along the same lines as my reference to Don's lower back arch idea. That along with holding the knees (especially that front left knee) may be the trick. Let us know.
Coming Up from being DOWN
I had the same problem, but I cured it by bending over 30+% and keeping my chin down and nose perfectly still on the ball and when my left bicep hits the front of my chin, the backswing immediately transitions to swinging UP as fast as possible.
Basically the problem goes away when you bend over without sitting or squatting. Bend over at the waist and keep your knee bend at a tiny tiny minimum.
Coming up in the BUS
Me too, I had the exact same problem of coming up in the BUS. Keeping Nose At Ball (NAB) in the BUS has helped a lot, but also incorporating Allen's recent tip of not initiating the FUS until the bicep has hit the chin has done wonders for me in the last couple of rounds! The timing of the bump has never been easier, it seems like ensuring the bicep hits the chin prevents me from rushing the FUS, spinning out, and coming over the top. I want to get myself on video some time soon to check out the difference with this new swing thought.
Thanks Allen for sharing that tip (and Surge for spreading the word).
Todd N
Engaging the core muscles
Neil, I was a bit inconsistent with the driver today, missing left and right. On the 14 tee box I remembered my suggestion to you about trying to firm up the core muscles. After thinking about firming up the core muscles' every shot was close to perfection. The drives were all very long and straight and all four approach shots more controlled and inside 10 feet. I can't wait to see if it works as well tomorrow.
Maybe the outward knee pressure, by itself, was not enough to keep me out of the SBG.
Core Muscles
Dave, did a few attempts at this in my office after I read your advice and looking forward to giving it a go when on the course. Will let you know how it works, nothing ventured, nothing gained or as my mates would say he's got paralysis by analysis, LOL.
Lower back
Neil,
What helps me when I consistently remember to do it, is to make sure I have that little arch in my lower back- kind of sticking my arss out a bit. Surge refers to this in his original series of lesson videos (PPGS swing fundamentals). It is the one in the series called "Posture". That firm little arch does a number of things including helping us maintain our posture/spine angle during the swing.
This may be the simple reminder that assists you in not coming up.
I too am very flexible. That's not a bad thing so stay flexible as long as possible (lol). I have always fought over rotational and the SBG while thinking I was 3'4's and vertical. My wife is a great mirror and never afraid to tell me I'm over swinging! Reviewing that posture video and how to accordion down while creating that arch in the lower back helps get me back on track with better posture and a more limited turn and BUS.
Hope this helps.
Posture
Neil,
Try the old cushion on the wall with your head on it do the BUS! Make sure that your chin is not down on your chest. It should be slightly elevated. That allows your neck, shoulder and upper arm muscles free rein to swing around. The top of my swing comes when the crease at the top of my lead bicep touches my chin. Anything farther than that and lifting is almost inevitable. I then concentrate on swinging 'under' and up to the T finish and recoil. When I don't do this I end up with a modified rotational swing. As soon as I do it correctly everything just falls into place. Good luck and keep on to succeed. DH in NZ
The Cushioning Effect
DH, sounds good I'll give it a go. Now let see, I keep my bum on one wall, my scone on another and swing between them both, presumeably without the cushions falling, think I'll take up playing jigsaw puzzles, LOL
DH, I might need help
DH, I think I might need further instructions. My pillow is ruined, I punched a hole in the ceiling, my butt hurts and as soon as I recover from my concussion I'm taking up tiddlywinks. ;0)) I should have known all this rain would lead to no good.
DH, I might need help
Lynn, It is a wonder you didn't hear the shrieks of laughter from there on reading your response. Hahaha!
Our first day out in a long time was very sensible, as the wet stuff has returned once again. The weather gods are teasing us. Not due to ease until Monday coming : - ( So back to swinging during any breaks in the weather. Laughter is a good tummy toner Lynn. Thanks for that ; - ) DH
Posture - Coming Up
I too am way over flexible. I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome Hypermobility Type. My body will flop all over the place if I let it. I have to squeeze my stomach muscles to keep my core in place during the swing.
Bottom Line: Just bend over to what feels like to you an extreme amount and keep your chin and nose down at the ball and be super still. When your left bicep touches the front of your chin FIRE UP afap. Try it, you might like it. Don't worry, you are not as far bent over as you think and Don is right, your weight is at the front of your arch.
Posture
Allen Fischer's explanation was quite insightful and welcome. Thanks.
This video arrived just before we headed to the course for our first outing for quite a while. So I deferred watching it until our return. I had a very good day and hit some beauties. I am concentrating on 'UP and UNDER' during the swing. I had noted yesterday that when I skip the rock successfully it all just seems to happen. On the course I hit some of the most accurate and long, longer irons than I have in a long, long time. So much so that my confidence with them allowed me to attack the pin from much farther out than normal. I hit some, for me, breath taking shots today and those in a winds gusting to about 35miles an hour. In exposed places it seemed stronger.
The video today mirrored some of my errant shots today. I realized after one not so pleasing shot, that I had not 'LIFTED THE CLUB IN THE BUS'!!!!! As soon as I gave myself an inward telling off, I started to hit accurate and pleasing shots. 5 and 4 irons were exceptional and on one of my (in)famous whims, I took out the 17deg Driving iron on one hole into the strong wind. It gave me good distance right down the centre of the fairway. I used it on my next shot and repeated the process. I took out the 5iron and nailed the pin, one putt for a birdie! Posture is definitely the key to everything. Allen Fischer's explanation acted out by Surge, was so simple. A picture is indeed a thousand words. Must get my wife to use a cattle prod on me if my posture changes hahaha! Back to GBSAPS fellow Surgites. DH
Surge's posture and posture at address
Surge's spine angle at address is approximately 30 degrees +/- a couple depending on club. Yes, Don continually monitors and adjusts his swing and posture. But, really the adjustments are quite minimal. His posture is a good model for all to follow. This maybe the range for all all golfers as this has been and is the posture of the best amateurs and pros for many decades. This is confirmed with any of today's instructional software programs. But yes, as we know and see, there are some significant deviations .ie. Matt Kuchar. Tiger is certainly bent way over..now......will see if that remains in place over the long haul.
Jeff Sluman (Champions tour) is most certainly a vertical swinger and he pops up with an upright posture...he may be 5'7". I don't think you see many 5'9" or shorter players bent over at 45 degrees......as an instructor I have and never would advise this posture for any height golfer.......and there are many reasons. #1 it is not body friendly.
30 Degrees is the Magic Number
Thanks for clarifying the back angle issue. The counter intuitive thing is that bending over more at the beginning of the swing is more back friendly than standing up too tall. I was watching slo-mo of Fred Couples Sunday and his back angle cannot be more than 10 degrees at address.
Posture today
Had a pleasant 9 holes this morning at 6am before work. I aimed to keep good posture as we have been discussing. One of the things I found myself keying on was simply making sure I was pre-loaded right and feeling stable and quiet. A deep breath just before my back swing and then having full intention of finishing forward with my weight on my front foot and lightly on the toe of my back (right) foot. Balanced finish and facing the target. Hit 5 out of 9 greens today which is fairly good. those shots into and on the green included distances of 80, 105, 140, 155 and 195 yards. Only parred 4 of the 5 with a three putt after the 195 pin high shot on the par 3 #17. Just stoked the first putt too hard and had 10 feet coming back. Two putted every green to shoot a 41. One of those days where I didn't reward good ball striking.
I do think a good round under 80 is coming this week in spite of the 114*F heat. Well they say 114* but the temps are taken at the air port in the shade. If the tourists knew how hot it is on the strip outside near the pavement it would scare the *!!#@& out of them!! more like 125 or more. Ouch!
Breaking 80
Hi Surge I downloaded your PPGS PDF two days ago...... I've been trying for 20years to break 80 struggled with the fade/slice. I'm 68years old with a total knee replacement been in a lot of pain. Today I represented my club in a competition and shot a gross 77 with a net 59 not bad off 18h/c. I came off the course completely pain free.
I truly was amazed at the straight laser type shots I was hitting. All I've got to do now is adjust my yardage as I was hitting so sweat theywere going 30 to 40 yards further
Surge thank you so very much I'm so happy ........ Eureka !
Regards Garry ........... Nottingham England
Great round Garry!
You must be a very quick study. Most of us have a bit more of a learning curve with this swing.
All the best,
Dave
Coming Up, Staying Down & Moving On
Fellas, just want to say what great responses I got yesterday from this video, got heaps of options to try out now and already starting to feel good about my "coming-up" problem, thanks again.
wrestlers stands
Thanks Surge and Allen
I never played basketball or tennis much as a youth. I have spent a hundred thousand hours on a wrestling mat. I always hit the ball better with the PPGS in a wrestler stands, I thought I needed to be a tennis or basketball stance(taller). Surge how far bent over is to far bent over.
Eric V Tampa,FL
Spine angle
My thoughts:
Anything between 30 and 40 degrees works fine for me, and is what comes natural anyway.
That said, the statements about using more spine tilt to stay out of the SBG (although factual) are getting close to using the wrong mechanics for the lift.
There is no "body friendly" benefit to a vertical swing if that swing verticality is achieved through rotation of the torso (in other words standard rotational body torque at a more severe spine angle). Sure it's vertical but with just as much or more strain on the back than with a normal spine angle.
Although I think between a 30 and 43 degree spine angle is optimum that is not the determining factor in being able to make a vertical lift with the arms, which can be achieved even with the spine angle completely vertical.
Make no mistake. I am not advocating a vertical spine angle or anything other than 30 to 40 degrees for efficiency of the swing path. I am cautioning that achieving a vertical swing using rotational mechanics turned on their side is not an accurate portrayal of this swing. Verticality is achieved through arm lift, not spine tilt.
Spine Angle and Toe Line
Steve, I agree totally. Keeping the hands and the club head in front of the toe line prevents over rotating at any angle...
Arm lift is key
Good point by Steve, in fact with regard to the head coming issue that Neil mentioned earlier, I should have mentioned that focusing on arm lift from the mitt also significantly reduced the amount my head was coming up in the BUS. Getting the "in the mitt and up the tree" motion in the BUS is something I struggled with for a long time, I had a really difficult time visualizing and executing it. Recently I invented my own visualization that aligned more to what it "feels" like when I execute it properly. On the takeaway I imagine the clubhead going straight back into the "mitt" point, and then I imagine it going outward at a 30 degree angle. This gets me lifting the club after I've hit the mitt. In a sense the 30 degree outward feeling matches reality because in relation to my chest my arms are actually moving outward from it as I turn slightly and lift the club up to the 11 to 12 oclock position. I've incorporated this and the bicep hitting the chin as key swing thoughts for me and it's been working very well. Something to consider trying.