PPGS Physics and Length of Clubs

Don, I think you are off base on this issue. I have had a set of 1 Iron clubs for over 2 years. Mine worked out to be based on the length of my old 7 iron, the club that I actually hit the best in my set of incremental length irons. Gee, I wonder how that worked out to be the length? Each of the irons have 4 degrees of loft difference and on average hit about 10 yards different. So instead of having 9 different ball positions I only have 1 ball position for all my irons. Saying the length of the shaft makes a difference is hogwash. Consistency is what we are after in this game and the 1 Iron single length irons provides that. I'm not saying they are the end all for golf but it sure seems that looking at a lot of pros golf bags the irons look pretty even sitting in the bag.

EyeDunno - thanks for your reply to this. I have been considering getting the same type of golf clubs from the same company. I hit the 8 & 9 in my bag the best, and they are the same length. Yeah, shorter clubs are easier, and I am believing that this applies to the whole set. Question, what about the longer irons, do you carry more woods or use the 3/4/5 irons.

Don - I love the PPGS system, it works and I tell everyone I know about it. They see the improvements in my game and I gave you a lot of the credit. Can you clarify something for me in your video. My question surrounds when you stated about the vertical plane being better. True - a flatter plane is harder to maintain from a physics point-of-view, you need more energy. If the clubs are all shorter, is not this set then easier to swing with the less lofted clubs (5-4-3) more accurately, and will that accuracy offset the loss of club head speed (they are essentially modeled after a 7-iron I believe)?

I am trying to decide between getting the 1 Iron Golf Set or going to Doc and getting a set of irons. My decision time is 5 months away (xmas timeframe). And yes, it is a compelling argument but I don't like being "shafted" : )

Lately swinging very well, thanks to all I have learned here.

Down the middle,
Jon

Does anyone here play online on World Golf Tour? http://www.wgt.com/ is the URL. I have been playing for a few years now and I find the physics in that simulation annoyingly realistic. Coupled with real course images it is quite the experience, much different than a computer game or a console like the Wii.

When I first started, I played worse than in real life. Recently that has reversed, because I have better equipment and have really learned how to think about shots and course management. Great. The reason I bring this up here is that I find what I learn in WGT actually now HELPS me on the real course. I think about proper planning more (you really need that in WGT at higher levels), the effects of the elements/physics etc. Does anyone else find the same thing and/or am I crazy (about this : ).

Thanks and keep it down the middle wherever you play,
Jon

PS - if you are on WGT and want to shoot a round or two - my nickname is headhacker.

R2 - thanks for the comments - both positive and negative on the 1 Iron Golf clubs. What you said makes sense, and I basically need to think about what I want to do given all the information presented.

What I am reading is that in order to maintain the proper gaps between the clubs I would have to adjust my club head speed to make up for the same/shorter shaft lengths.

Cheers,
Jon

I am a great fan of Don and his PPG swing. I have been to a 1 day school with Dave Seeman and have great respect for their teachings. However, I am also a great fan of my 1 Iron golf clubs. I have perfect yardage gaps and the clubs help to inhance my PPG swing. They have been the final peice of the puzzle for me. Was a 12 handicap, now a 5 handicap. PPG swing and 1 Iron clubs are great together.

Jon, here's a chart example you may find informative.

http://blog.hirekogolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2011_golf_club_length_slides_final.pdf

The above club fitting chart(s) is very interesting and one of the key points that is often incorrectly known by the general golf public is club and club head weight INCREASES as we go from longest to shortest. You'll notice in the length vs. head weight chart (SEE PAGE 20 above) that the driver is normally the lightest club in the bag and the wedges are the heaviest. Surprised? Actually the putter is often the heaviest club weighing over 300 grams. Especially lately as 'heavier' putters have become more popular. Why is the driver the lightest club and the wedges the heaviest?
Quoting Ralph Maltby (a club making and fitting guru), "In order for a set of clubs to have the same swingweight, as each club gets shorter, each clubhead must weigh incrementally more to maintain the same swingweight or club balance." This is important because it allows the golfer to have a similar feel with each club while using the same swing and tempo. It is true that as the clubs get longer we automatically increase our clubhead speed. And here is the important point, it is both the increasing length of the club AND the decreasing loft of a club that are the combined reasons for hitting the ball further. This is where Eyedonno is off saying that "club length is hogwash" when it comes to effect on distance. As R2 said, he hits his clubs built by Doc much further than he could with the 1 iron length clubs.

Again quoting Ralph Malby, ".... the 1/2 inch length difference (between each club) is also the equivalent of approximately 5-7 yards DISTANCE DIFFERENCE."
The length of the club absolutely effects distance. Loft difference of 4* accounts for another 5-7 yards giving us the 10-15 yard difference between clubs.

Jon, the danger of feeling the need to swing harder to gain more than the 10 yards that Eyedonno mentions is that any conscious difference in attempt to increase clubhead speed or power in our swing when playing golf often ends up with a chink,thin, too far or too short, right of or left of target result! Ultimately our tempo and timing needs to be the same with each swing regardless of which club is in our hands. In fact in a fitting, our tempo would be one of several factors considered by a top fitter.

http://www.mizunousa.com/golf/innovation/performance-fitting-system

That was not a recommendation for a Mizuno fitting just an FYI.

Having said that I agree that if the 1 iron length idea works for Eyedonno and some others that is fine for them. I do understand the logic and agree that the longer clubs are normally the toughest to hit for many.It is true that as a general rule, the longer clubs are more difficult for both direction and distance and that is hitting the center of the face (or sweet spot) becomes more challenging. Keep in mind it is not only the longer length that makes it more challenging but less loft. And yes, Doc and Surge both agree that a 43 inch driver is easier to consistently hit 'em longer and straighter than using a 45/46 inch driver. The same logic applies to the fairway woods, hybrids and 3-5 irons. So some choose to make the increments only 1/2 inch between clubs rather than a full inch. Others will also go 5 degrees of loft variance between irons 9-5 rather than the typical 4. This helps make the distance gaps bigger for those with slower swing speeds.

Ultimately I prefer the more traditional length increases rather than the single length concept because the length does contribute to distance and I want to be able to hit my 5 iron 175 and my 4 iron 190-195 and my woods 205-230 and my driver 240-250. If they are all the length of my 7 iron that's not happening.

My vote would be for Jon and anyone else to get a fitting by a certified PPGS fitter. I did and love the clubs and results.

Thanks Robert et al - if the decision had to be made today, I'd go with Doc and his custom fitting and clubs. Thanks for saving me the trouble. That was my plan a year or so back, but I got sidetracked by that other site and did not fully consider all the variables (apparently).

I am not sure what has got more appealing about WGT, I too joined a few years back in 09, and left after a while. A friend got me back into it and now after a year or so of consistent application I have made the Legend tier and I am loving it. Makes me think about the physics of golf more which is what I like. Also, I have better computer equipment to run it on so that may help as well. Let me know - I'd like to shoot a round or two sometime.

First, a few things to put my comments/observations into context:
1) I am not affiliated in ANY way with the 1-Iron system. Anything I say in defense of them is not an effort to promote them.
2) I own and played 1-Irons for about three years and then shelved them.
3) I am a hobbiest clubfitter who is moving progressively into the clubfitting business. I believe wholeheartedly in being fitted for clubs, and I play fitted clubs.
4) I play about mid-70s golf -- sometimes higher, sometimes lower.

I can guarantee (yes, guarantee!) that the lengths that you will hit constant length (CL) clubs will be nominally different from your "regular clubs." They may not differ at all (some people will even hit them longer). All this discussion of "you'll hit your long irons so much shorter and your short irons so much longer" is CRAP. People will use misinterpreted, armchair physics to prove that it won't work and will tell you that "if it worked, the big guys would be doing it." It's amazing the number of arguments that you hear about how they won't work that come from people who have never even held one. How can I guarantee that they play the same? I PLAYED them. Not for an afternoon, or for a week, but for 3 years. Guess what? I hit my sand wedges of my custom-made Snake Eyes and custom-made SMT 303s about 103 -105 yards. I hit my 5-irons about 185. Guess how far I hit the 1-irons? EXACTLY the same yardage. (In fact, I like the wedges so much that they're still in my bag.)

As for the physics, there is very little difference to speed that the "weight on the string" travels when you vary the length of the pendulum 1/2". Remember, that's a 1/2" over quite a length. The variance between irons due only to the length is minimal; a couple of percent at most, which translates into a couple of yards. The primary elements of distance is loft, contact with the sweetspot, and swing speed. The slight difference in the shaft length will affect swing speed very little. (Some people will even pick up swing speed with a shorter club and most people will increase the tendency to hit the ball on the sweetspot. These people will actually gain distance.), So, the primary driver of distance will be loft, which is adjusted in the single length set to account for the small loss in swing speed (or gain, in the shorter irons).

(Robert, I would be interested in the source for Ralph Maltby's claim that ".... the 1/2 inch length difference (between each club) is also the equivalent of approximately 5-7 yards DISTANCE DIFFERENCE." I can't find that in his book Golf Club Fitting and Performance and I would love to query Ralph on this. Every other "study" I have read has placed this effect much lower. David Tutelman, a golf physics guru, says, "***Over the 3i-PW sets***, the constant-length set show a "range compression" of 10 yards compared to a conventional set. That is, the range covered by the constant-length set is about 10 yards less than the conventional set. About a third of the range loss is in the gap between the 3-iron and 4-iron. This is probably because a low-lofted iron needs the extra clubhead speed, in order to apply the spin to keep the ball in the air." http://www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/OneClub.php).

So, if I believe in the 1-Iron approach, why don't I still play them? I don't like the look of them when I stand over them. Seems silly, but that's just a fact. I also don't believe, as David Lake professes, in a one-shaft-flex-fits-all approach. Now, don't get me wrong -- I don't believe shaft flex makes as much of a difference as most people think. Tom Wishon places it at about the 5th most important club characteristic when fitting a club. It's not totally unimportant, I just think that shaft flex has more to do with feel than it has on ball flight. I don't like the "boardy" feel of the 1-Iron shafts. (For those of you who think shaft flex is a huge deal on ball flight, check this video out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDaKUHxk0I8. This guy swaps out a XS men's steel shaft and a ladies graphite shaft on the same iron head and tracks the difference on a Trackman. Very interesting.)

More than anything, I find it very interesting that Don is so quick to jump on the anti-CL bandwagon. I say that for two reasons:

1) The whole PPGS, anti-rotational swing, depends on people accepting that the status quo isn't necessarily right. Just because I can find a whole bunch of VERY knowledgeable, VERY good golfers who tell me that the PPGS doesn't make sense, doesn't make them right. Just the other day I had a teaching professional tell me, "You know, if you didn't bow your legs like that and you took more of a backswing, you'd hit the ball farther." He, like Doc Griffin, had a great explanation based on his understanding of the golf swing. He also, like Doc, has plenty of evidence that he can point to by just turning on the tour. I choose not to believe him because I have actually tried the PPGS and I know that it works.

2) The 1-Iron system fits so well with your PPGS philosophy. I would have thought you would have been all over this like ugly on an ape. While it is true that the lie angle addresses the issue of changing club lengths, hitting a longer shaft length club consistently on the "sweetspot" is more difficult. That's proven over and over. (You even expound on the virtues of a shorter driver for this very reason. Why would you think this wouldn't be the same for a 3-iron versus a 7-iron?) I can also say that hitting a longer shafted club with the PPGS is more difficult. I know that you're going to respond by saying, "the ball doesn't know what club is hitting it" or "the hands don't know what club its holding." But all you need to do is go through the questions you receive and see how many people have more difficulty swinging the driver with the PPGS. The longer length club has a tendency to "lay off."

I know my previous message was already long, so I apologize, but I wanted to add that I don't believe the single-length mantra that you will find it easier to hit your 3- and 4-irons. Frankly, in order to get these irons, at the shorter length, to fly as far, David has had to strengthen the lofts too far. The 1-Iron 3-iron is 19*. Considering that this is played from centre of stance, I think the effective loft is even lower. Most people can't hit anything with that low of a loft. That being said, I believe some of the OEM clubs this year have 3-irons with lofts as low as 17*!!! That's a 1980s 1-iron, which, according to Lee Travino, not even God can hit. That's why we now use hybrids, and I think the same thing would be true for a set of 1-Irons.

The greatest benefit of the constant length iron is that they all feel the same. I suspect, Don, that what you were alluding to in your video about the lengths Doc makes your clubs is that he is not using the full 1/2" increment in order to MOI (moment of inertia) match your clubs. For those of you unfamiliar with this, it is a different approach to swing-weighting to make your clubs consistent. With consistent MOIs, each club takes the same effort to swing and feels the same. Constant length clubs do that naturally. Since all the shafts, grips, and heads weight exactly the same, the MOI across the set is EXACTLY the same.

Finally, for beginning golfers, the beauty of single-length clubs is that you play them from the exact same spot in your stance. This simple change in philosophy changed my wife's game over night. She never could get used to varying the placement of the ball to accommodate the different lengths of her clubs. As soon as I put single-length clubs in her hands and told her to hit them out of the centre of her stance every time, her iron play improved.

I took the plunge about three- to four weeks ago. It has taken that long to get used to hitting the entire set I purchased the irons ( a demo set), the wedges and the driver and the seven iron. My golf game is a bit of a saga as I was about to give up on golf before I tried these. I also during the same time came back to the vertical swing after spending last year may two trying to learn a rotational swing that would work. Previously, I had taylor made burner 1 which had be fit to the extent that they could be from off the shelf. The results. I am playing better golf then ever. I can hit the entire set of irons and my wedges and the driver and wood hit really well. The driver I hit a very consistent 220-240 yards and very straight compared to a very variable 18-- 235 and usually in the wrong fairway. The clubs do not hit as far as my burners did as the lofts are not as hyped up. I would say the driver is the best I have owned and I should mention that the clubs lie angle actually match well with a vertical swing. In addition to clubs I am doing one other thing that I think is making as big if not a bigger difference. I am reading a book by Dr. Bob Rotella called the unstoppable golfer. It's focus is on the mental side of the game and it teaches you how to get out of your own head and focus while you are playing. There are so many mechanical elements that we can run through our head especially when we are searching for improvement in our games. Last year my negative self talk was brutal and it made me almost quit playing as the though of paying for the pleasure of beating myself up about my game. Now i am focusing on what I have to do with whatever shot I have before me and it is making a big difference in my game. In closing I will just say that I took a chance on the Irons. For me it was a final shot before giving the game up. I have also committed to the vertical swing. The two work well for me right now. I can hit every club in the bag well. Though the clubs that I hit far with burner I hit shorter so you will have to learn new distances on your clubs. They are very well built I was immediately impressed with the build quality of the clubs and the driver has the best feel of any driver I have owned. I don't thin this is an either or between doc and the 1 Iron golf. This is an either could work well for you. I Iron golf clubs do have an adjustment period. Mine as taken 3-4 weeks but I am very happy with them.
Ejcj

Wow - lots of information and all appreciated. If I may summarize ...

1 - Lofted clubs are harder to hit - the shorter shafts in 1iron make them easier but you need less loft and more speed to make them go the same distance as regular clubs.

2 - Having consistency in your swing is a good thing. If you have the right regular clubs, each swing is the same, the shaft length and other factors get the club head speed up and combined with the loft hit the shots we know and love.

3 - Having a consistent place to hit the ball in your stance is a good thing as well. 1 Iron golf has achieved this by using the same shaft length. The benefit is off-set by a loss in length (somewhat) for the same effort as normal clubs. THIS can be overcome by increasing/changing swing speed, but that seems impractical at best.

4 - What you really need are clubs that match YOUR swing and YOUR game. We are not all power hitters, we have different goals, play on different courses, and have different levels of skill and knowledge.

5 - We have a nice and varied group of dedicated folks here with a surprisingly vast array of knowledge - thanks everyone.

** FINALLY ** The earlier post regarding the 1 Iron Set in actual use has convinced me to go with a custom set by Doc. He (poster) said his is length from LW-3i was 90-190. That is simply not enough range for me and I know I can do better with the set I get from Doc and get it fit just right.

Keep it straight,
Jon