Recently, George Morris submitted a question pertaining to the limited turn aspect of the Peak Performance Golf Swing. He was confused about the amount of turn that is being taught and thought that turning to the toe line was a true 90 degree turn.
"I follow your videos and i am having great success with your system and my game. LOVE IT. QUESTION: we always say we use a limited turn (70 degress) yet we turn to the toe line. i am a bit confused with that-- isn't that a 90 degree turn??? please explain. thank you so much.
Well George, I think the best explanation for the limited turn and the differences between 70 degrees and 90 degrees can best be shown using my plane trainer aid (which can be purchased in Surge's Shop here). The story that I always tell involves a time when DJ was having trouble with his swing. He was turning way too much and if it wasn't for the plane trainer, I might not have realized it as quickly as I did. Take a look at the video and you'll see just what I mean!
Keep it vertical,
The Surge!
Don Trahan
PGA Master Professional
If you can't view the YouTube video above try CLICKING HERE. You must allow popups from this site for the link to work.
Comments
oooops....Where can I buy the
oooops....Where can I buy the Plane Trainer.....now?
ÃÂ Looks like Dick sent that
ÃÂ Looks like Dick sent that rain from Oklahoma to us. Supposed to rain tomorrow and Saturday. I'm hoping they are wrong about Saturday, I am in the mood to shoot a good score. ;-)
DJ's off and running. One
DJ's off and running. One under after One. Blasted out of the front bunker and went in from 10 yards.
Go Deej, keep it up!
http://www.pgatour.com/shottra...
Watch every shot on shot tracker.
ÃÂ Yes, my arms are making
ÃÂ Yes, my arms are making up for the difference.ÃÂ If, as you say, my entire upper body were in a cast, AND my arms were pointing straight out from the shoulders so that my hands were shoulder-width apart, THEN I would have to turn 90* to get my left arm to the toe line.
But my hands are together, so I do NOT have to turn 90*; only the 68-75* that I stated before.ÃÂ My left arm, starting at address, in not perpendicular to the toe line; hence, any turn to the toe line must be less than 90*.
Of course, there could be some new math concept of which I am unaware that could make it greater than 90*, but I do not believe there is.
My problem is the opposite.Ã
My problem is the opposite.ÃÂ I tend to not turn far enough before lifting the club up.ÃÂ This leads to balls hit to the left or a serious slice as I try to adjust with my hands.ÃÂ Will the Plane Trainer help with this?
They keep change the weather
They keep change the weather here its supposed to rain until evening tomorrow and scattered thunder storms Saturday. I am supposed to play Saturday in our tours open house. Sunday is going to be the best day of the two. Hopefully well get out to play one day itching to play after tonight I think tonight is the best I have ever swung a club.
You are describing my number
You are describing my number 1 Idiot Button that I hit. ÃÂ Anytime that I see dying duck fades and slices, I hit the button because I am just swinging with my arms. ÃÂ I put a BIG sign in my practice area, and also on my golf bag...
IT'S THE SHOULDER TURN. ÃÂ You must take the club away using the triangle of your hands,arms, shoulders, by Turning as one piece. ÃÂ You will need to do something to incorporate that feel so it becomes the primary move when you start your swing. ÃÂ You can start by just standing straight up and holding the club in front of you, parallel to the ground, and then turn your shoulders till the club is over the toe line. ÃÂ You can still accomplish the same ÃÂ club over toe line by keeping your shoulders straight and just swinging your arms. ÃÂ But, that is where you will lose the power, the lag, and hit slices.
Even now, after two years, I will be wondering what is going on with hitting to the right and all clubs are 10-20 yards short... finally,I remember and hit #1. ÃÂ Once you get the shoulder turn, you will feel the club which helps to know the bump is ready and the sense that you are coming into the ball with power.
With a driver if the ball is
With a driver if the ball is off of your left heel your left arm is extended almost directly in front along with the shaft. The shorter the club and the farther back in the stance, the less turn it takes (because the shaft has a head start). It's why I could do the swing fairly well with a short iron but was lost with a longer club when I was keeping my arms directly in front of me with no arm rotation.
Show me the swing you made where your arms didn't rotate or close across the chest more than at address.
ÃÂ Try accordioning a bit
ÃÂ Try accordioning a bit more at address. That should move the bottom of the swing lower. If nothing results then most likely coming up too soon could be the culprit.
ÃÂ Good luck this weekend,
ÃÂ Good luck this weekend, with the golf and the weather.
Maybe that range work will carry over.
I haven't hit a ball all week. Got out the SwingRite a few times and I can tell I'm in a pretty good part of my normal up and down cycle and feel really strong and coordinated. Since that part of the cycle doesn't usually last very long I'm hoping to play. ;-)
If you are just using your
If you are just using your arms, then you are not doing the bump properly to move your weight to your left side.ÃÂ That's where your power comes from in this swing. ÃÂ
Kevin, I am going with you. Ã
Kevin, I am going with you. ÃÂ My point was that you need to start the turn with the shoulders. ÃÂ When you incorporate the right elbow up position, it facilitates the lifting up the tree. ÃÂ So, you keep the 70o degree turn, but it is maintained with keeping the triangle together as you start the turn. ÃÂ
I tried the drill I suggested with the club being held in front of you, and when you just swing the arms, you end up laying the club off.
I think I gave Steve the wrong impression of how I was getting to the toe line and up the tree. ÃÂ I am very vertical. ÃÂ If you stand up straight and turn until your left arm hits the toe line, when I bend over, my hands and club are in the perfect cactus position that Don achieves in his drill. ÃÂ
Good golfing the other day
Good golfing the other day Robert btw, now you can keep track of your scoring vs par in your head and double check at the end when you count them up.
It helps me to keep from
It helps me to keep from making too much of a backswing into the SBG and/or only an arm swing if I go back into the catcher's mitt and think thumb's straight up to ring the bell, then immediately bump into the forward swing down, through with thumb's straight up on forward swing when I am practicing. Thumb's up also keeps me from rotating my shoulders back too far.ÃÂ
I agreeÃÂ Sometimes I don't
I agreeÃÂ Sometimes I don't bend my knees enough either.ÃÂ ball position is critically important, too.
I think that this aspect of
I think that this aspect of the swing is the most under appreciated and misunderstood element for getting vertical and power. ÃÂ I seem to recall that Surge stated that swinging with his arms, and THINKING he was turning in a one piece, was a consistent problem for him. ÃÂ As you, when I do it properly, the shots have power and accuracy, HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Steve, I look for your thoughts all the time asKevin's, so think I misled you with what I was actually doing.
Right here:ÃÂ http://www
Right here:ÃÂ http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Su...
That is a good and simple
That is a good and simple swing thought that a lot of people use. Hard to really go too wrong with it.
Lots of talk about "arm swings" on the blog lately. I hope not too many people are getting the wrong idea about that because Surge has said that the swing should be 90% arms and 10% body and I think he even went as far as saying 95%/5%.
The swing really is mostly an arm swing but that other 10% body needs to be perfectly timed and the swing path correct to get the full benefit of the power the arms are capable of providing.
I'm not really sure how to quantify those percentages, even in my own swing, but if I had to take a guess I would think I am more around 80% arms and 20% body, with the "body" part being mostly legs. I'm not really getting much of anything out of any torque of my upper body so it doesn't put any strain on my back. The way I used to swing put a lot of strain on my back but luckily I haven't ever had a back problem.
ÃÂ Robert
ÃÂ Robert
I got the Plane Trainer a week ago.ÃÂ It is helping.ÃÂ I just got the Swing Trainer from Doc yesterday.ÃÂ I love it already.ÃÂ No wonder everyone who has it loves it.ÃÂ I got to play with it yesterday while standing in the front yard of an inspection waiting on the home owner to get home.ÃÂ Learned a couple of things about my swing right there.ÃÂ Can't wait for the rain to stop this afternoon so I can go to the range with it.
The biggest difference between men and boys is the price of our toys,
Dick
It is very close to
It is very close to impossible to describe the takeaway. Even people that are making every effort to leave the arms and hands completely neutral and let the shoulder turn dictate the back swing are rarely actually doing it. One reason is that it would take an extreme amount of flexibility to do it. Combine that with trying to not let the left knee kick in toward the right knee and most people can't do it.
The arms are either going to rotate as Surge advises or the left arm is going to come across the chest at least enough to allow a limited turn to get the club head to the toe line,or both.
The worst thing we can do is try to let the shoulders completely dictate how far the club head goes and then try to limit the turn. At that point halfway up we almost always flip the palms clockwise in an attempt to save the swing or else the club head would end up over the top of our head. I have never seen one single video where a player actually left the hands in the same vertical position relative to the body and/or didn't rotate the arms that was able to make a golf swing without going to at least 90* or beyond.
By the time we have rotated 20* the arms have rotated and the hands are already on the same vertical line as our right chest (and usually even further and outside of the right hip), whereas they started out on a vertical line with our left pants pocket..And we probably wouldn't even know we did it.
A look at any video will show it.
Like this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ca...
Interesting Craig,I like the
Interesting Craig,
I like the way you think pal.
I have to say that for the most part I was not score focused. Yes I did keep track of fairways, greens, putts, also up and downs as I always do, but I was in a bit of a zone. The cool thing was that after my double bogie I knew I was still going to play well and parred the next two holes. It was one of those days where I just had a calm, together feel all day. Didn't count the final score until the end of the day. Before counting I guessed a 78 but a 77 made me sit in my truck for a few minutes and reflect with a big smile. That was only the third time I've broken the 80 barrier in my golfing life. The first time was with my Dad 30 years ago. The last two have happened in the last two months. Don't know about tomorrows score but I do know, God willing* *I will be playing golf again.
What a game it is.
Hi DonÃÂ I hit the ball way
Hi DonÃÂ I hit the ball way to the right what can i do to stop that & where can I get a plane trainer Thanks RonÃÂ
Surge Nation
Surge Nation
I found the same thing Surge is talking about with the Plane Trainer.ÃÂ It is instant proof of when I turn too far.ÃÂ I don't have to guess, it is right there in front of me.
You folks have helped me a lot lately with your discussions about how much you turn and I really benefited from the comments about stop concentrating on making the turn.ÃÂ Just take the club away right to the toe line and then go vertical.ÃÂ It works great.
Just another reminder that golf, like life, can be simple, if we will just let it be,
Dick
Where can I get the 70 degree
Where can I get the 70 degree training aid you were using in the latest video?
I don't like keeping track of
I don't like keeping track of my score as well, especially when I'm going well, but my marker would seemly always remind me frequently if I'm close to par which can be annoying. Also after nine holes I hate it when my playing buddies would ask "how did you go for the first nine", I would usually reply (on an average day) "OK I guess but I'm not counting up until the end".
Like you I do keep track of my misses (not married thank god) or mishits and try to rectify the issue before the end of the round and I would also make a mental note for further practice sessions. ÃÂ I also don't let bad holes bother me like they would in the past and I make it a point to get on and go about making good shots on the next hole.
The Plane Trainer is in Surge
The Plane Trainer is in Surge's Shop (link at the top of the page).
As for why you're hitting the ball to the right, that depends on a lot of issues. Could be you have the ball too far back in your stance. Could be you're swaying forward with your upper body and getting ahead of the ball. Could be that's actually where you're aimed. Get video of your swing and you'll start to get a better idea of what's going on.
Have you seen the prices of
Have you seen the prices of some of the "toys" kids are asking for these days? ;-)
And by "Swing Trainer", I assume you mean the Swing Rite. It is a wonderful device to improve the timing of your swing.
Okay,that's it i'm convinced
Okay,that's it i'm convinced Surge, I'll buy the Plane Trainer ASAP. Next case.
ÃÂ http://www.swingsurgeon
ÃÂ http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Su...
Thanks, I will try that, IM
Thanks, I will try that, IM thinking sometimes I don't bend my knees enough.ÃÂ ÃÂ Topping the ball is the worst thing I do sometimes!!
Thanks so much,
m
Robert
Robert
Yes sir, you are right, it is the Swing Rite. I am leaving for the range in a little bit, as the rain is slowing down.
Yes, the new video stuff kids want is expensive. But, when you throw that up against, the Harley, a boat, the truck, and of course the golf toys, they don't seem so bad.
Big boys need big toys,
Dick
Thanks Surge!!ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ
Thanks Surge!!ÃÂ ÃÂ ÃÂ When I turn to much, not good!!ÃÂ If I stay in line and up, it is a good thing.ÃÂ ÃÂ IM still having trouble hitting down on the ball, but, it could be some, coming up to soon?
Thanks so much for your help!
marilyn
Steve, Awesome video. I did
Steve, Awesome video. I did not mean to imply there was no rotation of the arms or lifting up to the mitt and up the tree. ÃÂ Your video shows how Surge was rotating the triangle as one piece, at least to me. ÃÂ I just know, that when I am hitting poorly, 90% of the time comes back to me starting the swing with my arms only.
I am going to try and work with the Picasa web. ÃÂ You had recommended it before, but I did not get too far into it. ÃÂ It is a very useful breakdown.
I have attempted to use the
I have attempted to use the PPGS golf swing since 9/2009.ÃÂ My fear
is all it has done is make me an "arms" swinger.ÃÂ I don't feel I am
hitting it solid and I can't feel any "lag" in the swing.ÃÂ I am hitting it
straighter, shorter and without any feel of power.ÃÂ Any suggestions?
ÃÂ If you are depending on
ÃÂ If you are depending on the shoulder turn to get the club head to the toe line, as you describe in holding the club in front of youÃÂ and turning until the club reaches the toe line, that is completely wrong if you are trying to make a PPGS and is way too much shoulder turn.
That said, it is certainly better for performance than the alternative of never getting the club head to the toe line at all. Only problem is that you are not getting the benefit of "a body friendly swing" and anyone either with back problems or those that wish to avoid back problems shouldn't think of the takeaway in those terms at all.
I've made many good swings with good results making a swing just like you are describing but it's not even close to a PPGS but a rotary swing with a vertical lift.
I noticed that the wide
I noticed that the wide brimmed hat in today's video wasn't knocked off. Is there a style that can be used with the PPGS as opposed to the ball cap type of hat?
As long as we understand that
As long as we understand that the arms have to rotate, OR be one of the the lucky ones that do it automatically, almost any takeaway thought (including no takeaway thought) will work.
For the unlucky ones (like me) it will be a complete struggle until the light bulb finally comes on. In my old swing from a few years ago I could actually keep my hands directly in front of my chest throughout the swing with a vertical lift and my back completely facing the target, club vertical at the top, with no arm rotation. I could only achieve it by kicking my left knee in almost to my right knee. It was a completely rotational source of power with the arms doing very little even though the shaft was vertical at the top.
It was a hard habit to break and parts of it still occasionally raise it's ugly head.
It's why my mission has always been to keep someone else from making the same mistake, with almost no success. LOL
Came close one time but just about the time I thought they were going to get it somebody else mentioned three magic words and it was all over. Haven't heard from them since.
Get video of your swing. If
Get video of your swing. If you can't analyze the video and see where you're not properly performing the swing, you can share it on YouTube and some of us will try to give you advice, or you can get an online lesson through the Surge's online lesson program.ÃÂ You might also want to get to one of the golf schools if you can afford the time and money.ÃÂ
The basic answer is that if you're not feeling the power of the swing, then you're doing it wrong, and you need to get feedback on what is right. Do the 14 basic drills in front of a mirror, get video of yourself swinging, get advice from a professional (either a PPGS certified pro in your area, if there is one, or through the online lessons or golf schools).ÃÂ
ÃÂ I must respectively
ÃÂ I must respectively disagree with your assessment.ÃÂ When I turn in a one-piece take-away until my left arm is at the toe line, my turn is 68-74 degrees, which is not "way to much shoulder turn."ÃÂ At address, my left arm is at 15-18 degrees to the toe line, which means that I only have to turn 72-75 degrees to get parallel to the toe line.ÃÂ Since my spine is tilted toward the ball and I turn on an inclined plane, my hands (and hence the club) begin lifting as soon as I begin the turn.ÃÂ At the toe line, if I have done that part correctly, I stop turning and continue the vertical lift to the top of the BUS.
This is in conformance with the PPGS and prevents the "crushing the cigarette pack" which Surge cautions against.ÃÂ Doing the BUS in this manner gets me in the proper position at the top, much more so than turning too little, which was the major problem with my swing.
Since the end of last season, I have practiced turning, much as Kjmduke describes, and my swing has improved immensely as a result, once I ingrained the turn, became comfortable with it, and quit trying to force the turn.
where can I buy the plane
where can I buy the plane turner ÃÂ NOW
Steve and Kevin
Steve and Kevin
Thank you for the golf lesson this afternoon. Steve your thoughts straightened out my swing. Had a great night at the range swung at what felt like 80 % the whole time and hit shot after shot straight and long one after another. Did not want to leave but they were chasing people out.Hopefully it sticks.ÃÂ
For those who like to follow
For those who like to follow along, DJ is now on the first tee at Bay Hill.
Fairways and greens, DJ, and a whole lot of one-putts today.
You are free to disagree all
You are free to disagree all you want but it is not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. Your arms are making up for the other 20*. If your entire upper body was in a cast with the arms extended you would have to turn exactly 90* to get the left arm to the toe line.