Club Fitting Series with Doc Griffin: Shaft Length

 The address position for which club? How far you bend your knees and how far you bend over will vary from club to club, but it all varies in a known way based on your wrist-to-floor measurement when standing up straight.

What would be really useful would be some simple rules for us to check the fit of our clubs.  E.g., something like this (I'm guessing here): adopt your normal stance with your weight balanced on your feet and your arms handing straight down, put the club on the ground so the lie is right, then top hand should be one inch below the butt end of the club. 

I suspect my clubs are too long because when I hold them near the grip end the toe of the club is up in the air.

Sometimes it's just plain fun to not be too serious!  :-))  Thanks Steve!!  r2

 Try the check I mentioned in my reply to Robert F, which I wrongly attributed to TMedley [a good source of information non the less : - ]
WTF measurements posted by Jim Wile for shaft lengths. Explained by Doc Griffin in today's video.
Then check the lie angle. Sounded like my r7 prior to measuring it and choking down on the grip to the recommended distance. The resultss will surprise you [maybe not]
Good luck and PMGAS

T:

  That all depends - IF it is a long down hill putt on a fast green, I am not to upset if the putt comes up a few inches short.

   The great Bobby Jones once said "The short putt MIGHT have gone in, but we know for certain the one that went flying by did NOT!"

    Personally, I prefer the Crenshaw "die in the hole" approach. To me the "perfect miss" finishes about 2 or 3 inches past the hole.  Although I know Dave Pelz teaches 17 inches beyond the hole.

  Amos

A flatter swinger can execute their swing with longer clubs. However, if the person you're seeing is a truly qualified fitter, whether you swing rotationally or with the PPGS limited turn vertical swing should be irrelevant. They will fit you to whatever swing you walk in there using. The advantage of using a PPGS certified fitter is that they know what we PPGS swingers are trying to achieve, and their services and skills have been vetted by Doc and the staff.

When measuring the wrist to floor length, do you require the client to wear the golf shoes that they play in? It seems to me that different shoes (especially if you use orthotics inserts) would change the wrist to floor measurement from anywhere up to 1/2 inch. Is that enough to make a difference?

Really don't need to do a video. I can explain the basic perimeters here.

When fitting, you want to find the configuration of the club where the player is able to consistently hit the center of the club face with maximum force.  This would included finding the correct length, shaft specifics, lie, etc.  Then you can experiment with adding weight to the head to see if club head speed can be increased, feel, directional accuracy, etc.  Once you find the optimum set up, you check the club on an MOI machine and and build the clubs to this number. 

Great suggestion, Robert. Insightful.

Done. Grips were ALL undersized & needy.
Lie angle on all Adams A3 irons required adjustment.
(Taylormade wedge lie was right on, which may help
explain (in part) why it is my most consistent club.)

Good call on your part....

Thanks for the video link, too.

Some want to diesome day on the golf course, others with a chest crushed under the weight of a 300 pound barbell.

I am hoping you do a video about the basics of MOI fitting. Having learned club repair in the back room at a club 40 years ago it is always fun to check out improved ways to fit.

 I think he is adding to the Fitting Video volumes didn't Doc do one last week ?

Thanks Doc, very good explaination.

Joe Douglass

 Coach

That sounds like wise words spoken by a man who has been on more than one "two bag" date.

You know that one, one bag for her head, and one for yours, just in case hers comes off during the action.

I believe the tip itself actually originated with Doc, but I'm not certain anymore.

 Good points Amos. I guess it's all relative. As to the B. Jones statement, one could also say, The putt going past the hole and through the break, might have gone in, If hit easier, BUT, we Know the one left short had no chance. Different ways of saying much the same thing, depending on our own perspectives.

PMG

Though they are generally much more per dozen than I like to pay I did play Titlest a couple of weeks ago. They happen to be doing a ball fitting at the course I was at. After the ball fitting (which was really just hitting their ball to a pin 50 yards away with my 58* and several drives), all scoped and measured for spin,ect. It was determined that the ProV1x was better for me because it spends less. Did play wiyh it that day and have to say it is a great ball.

1/2" is minimal.  I generally ask people to wear sneakers at the fittings as we use a true turf mat so it equalizes out about the same.

 It is applicable to all swings as your personal measurements remain the same. The importance of the fitting is to achieve the best dynamic lie contact without the need for extraneous manipulations. Properly fitted clubs will allow this, regardless of your swing system, However, PPGS will simplify the system and make it much more body friendly.

PMG

Steve is spot on.

Thanks if the insight on gripping down on the club. Have noticed Rickie Fowler seems to grip down quite a bit.

 SGW

I like the way you think. 

For non golf, the symptoms would be a dejected look of disappointment on your partner's face, possibly murmuring under their breath, and a general sense of non-accomplishment of the mission.

As OJ's lawyer said, "If it don't fit, then you should just quit."  I think that is what he said. 

I am old and somewhat forgetful,
Dick

 When it's teed up that high, it doesn't take a very long shaft.

 I played TOUR B330-RX last year and liked them as well as the Prov1x I switch back and forth. If the greens get really hard I switch to either Prov1 or Tour B330 RXS. But I miss the old days of playing Pro staff forget which version but they were like 15.00 for a 18 pack.

Here's a better way.  Use the following table to check the length of your driver and 5-iron:

To measure your club length, set it in the address position and
measure up along the underside of the shaft from the ground to the tip of the
grip.

Here is the chart in inches:

WTF.......Driver length
29-32.......42.5
32-34.......43
34-36.......43.5
36-37.......44
37-38.......44.25
38-39.......44.5
39-40.......44.75

Note:  WTF = wrist-to-floor

5-iron lengths:

 

WTF      Length

29-32......37
32-34......37.5
34-36......38
36-37......38.25
 

This table was originally published by Doc Griffin several years ago.

Dick,
        You old rascal, Oklahoma is lucky to have you. Yesterday my wife found a ball with the Logo, Raptor Bay Golf Club [in Florida no less].Thought sheeeeeooot that was some drive, hahaha.
My balls were warm this very day. My wife wished me Happy Valentine's during the night and Lo! and behold we were both hitting them during practice very well in the end.
        Personal choice for me, is a ball that acts obediently and consistently and doesn't feel like hitting a goldurned brick in the process.Have tried them all, or nearly all.See in a golf mag I get on line, that Titleist have brought out FOUR new balls! Will be intereseting reading the claims on them.
        Will stick with AD333's and e6's for the time being.When we find one, I have never heard of before or tried before, will give them a go.
         Concentrating on practice and getting the 'skimming a rock' movement off to a tee. It is coming more often now and what a difference it makes. Hitting them long, straight and consistently is my Holy Grail. It seems much nearer at the moment than it was.
         My swing speed? No idea. Will get around to finding out when I see somewhere here with the gear to measure it.
         Achilles tendon and other beaten up parts are behaving themselves and all is right with the world in that respect. Just started to rain, and FOG forecast for tomorrow~! Are they kidding me? Summer?Hahaha. Hope that your raddled old carcass is in good shape,or as we should say, as well as can be expected? Good to see you are around more mate. Semper Fi and In Arduis Fidelis. Go get 'em Dick! Take up fishing? don't think so,have done enough CASTING in this sport in my time ; - ) Stay safe,stay well and above all, be your Happy rapscallion self.We wouldn't have you any other way.

The chart posted below by Jim applies to all for WTF measurement. Alot is involved in an over all complete fitting by Doc and all certified PPGS fitters. Much of it will be covered and anwered in the next few entries by Doc in this Video series.
Generally off the shelf clubs are too long, particularly the Driver and woods so they would seem to be better suited for the rotational swinger but are in most cases too long for them or even pros who normally perefer 44/45 inch drivers and not the ridiculous 46 inch driver sold to amatures as Steve mentions.
In todays video Doc demonstrates the swing compensations that those with clubs that are too long have to make. Properly fit clubs help you to come back square to the ball and make a big difference. Length is only one factor.

Maybe it was built over an ancient burial ground and the spirits became active. They didn't know because the headstones were gone. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

Yes, it is an excellent ball but it's firmer than your club head speed dictates.  There are other low spin balls that are softer and will compress better and therefore give you better rebound and higher ball speed.  From the "for what it's worth department.".

That is a creative thought Charlie. Kudos for that. Certainly club fitters have thought of that one and the fact that it didn't become a standard way of doing it indicates it is neither simpler or a better way. As for the toe sitting up at address, unfortunately it is not a good indicator that the club is too long. The toe will likely be in a very different position during your actual (or dynamic) swing. The correct lie of the clubhead is measured during a dynamic swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Ever have the tendency to hit some of your irons straight or even pull left and other clubs that you consistently tend to push? If so wouldn't it be cool to eliminate the lie angles as one of the causes?
As the fitter in this video indicates MOST clubs (unless fit) have an 8 out of 9 chance of having an incorrect lie and in many cases the lie is too flat. This would account for many of the pushed shots, especially if we are going from a flatter more rotational swing to a more upright swing. Doc would likely agree, even if we do get professionally fit clubs we should have our lies checked every couple of years depending on how frequently we play. Though I just got my clubs built by a PPGS fitter last year I am going to get the lofts and lies checked asap. I play anywhere from 1-3 times a week and unfortunately hit out of the rocks and desert more often than I'd like so I'm sure they may be off a fraction and that's all it takes to misinterpret a good swing for a bad one by results.
You are also correct though that the effective lie angle can be effected by the length of your clubs along with other factors like whether you swing flat or upright. Sound like getting a professional fit by a PPGS fitter is in order?

Thanks Boog.  You could always make a "collage" of memorable moments.  Might not be a long video but hey just a thought.  LOL

Yes. It is broad. Your job
must be pretty challenging.
Thanks for the thoughts here.

 Roger

I look forward to your after action report on how it goes at the range.

As dad used to say, "Don't be too hard on yourself, the world is full of people who will do that for you."

 I believe you are correct. I know it was not I. I do think it is a good learning/practice tip though and plan to utilize it this year. I use impact tape many times at the range, but your tip seems easier and less time consuming.

Greetings DH from the Northern Hemisphere--  I've had pretty good luck with the Precept Laddie---doesn't spin like the ProV but one can adjust for lack of same.  I've found that hitting 75 balls of different brands (shag bag) there isn't a heck of a lot of difference in distance results despite the abundance of hype from the various manufacturers.  If it's one thing you can count on with golf gear it's mucho, mucho, MUCHO hype.

It hardly seems like 7 years since my wife and I visited your beautiful country.  I'd go back in a heartbeat if finances allowed......still haven't counted out the possibility.  Would like to trudge a round or two with you near Wellington if I can get a return visit.  Meanwhile, keep following Surge's teaching and you'll really improve your accuracy and physical well being.
Best wishes,
Ray    PS Some of my NZ photos are at RayGawlak.com if you care to have a look.

In addition to the great chart Jim Wile posted, I'm sure soon Doc will use one of these videos to explain that static lie angle (how the club sits when you address the ball) is irrelevant to the determination of the actual lie angle necessary for your clubs. All that matters is the dynamic lie angle (how the club head actually comes into the ball at impact).

Surge Nation:

Time for another chapter of "Trials and Tribulations of the Aging Golfer" :<))) lol

    Since returning from the Vegas Outting with Surge, Doc, et al, I have beeen working diligently on "working the ball" .  Seems to go good on the range but I have been having all sorts of problems "taking it to the course" - and I have the scores to prove it! (and a rising handicap also) :<(((

    Friday I had ot use "all the recovery tricks I know"  just to break 100 -- finally wound up with 97

    Today was totally different!!  The draws and fades were suddenly like magic. And for some unknown reason, I suddenly gained almost 20 yards on the Driver tee shots!  hmmmmmmm -- getting LONGER with AGE? That is NOT supposed to happen!   The only equipment change was the ball -- I was playing a Wilson 50 today because I was out of Bridgestone TreoSofts. But they are both similar soft core, soft cover balls, so I do not think that expalins the difference.
 
    Only hit 9 of 14 farways, but 4 of the misses were by 6 inches to a foot - and on the "correct" side of fairway, mostly due to the extra rool on the longer drives. Average drive was 185 yards, compared to my "standard" of 165.   Possibly I am getting adjusted to "new eyes" following cataract surgery about one month ago ?  
    
    Another scoring help - my short game "returned from vacation" -- good chips and wedges and a "hot" putter resulted in 10 one-putts vs a single three-put for 27 putts used.  Hit 3 Bunkers, but got 2 sand saves -- THAT is a "small miracle" on our course -- you would have to play out of our "sand" to understand it.  Most of the "made putts" were in the 1 to 6 region, but I was able to sink a birdie putt from 15 feet and 21 footer to save par -- wound up with 90 feet of "made putts" - comapred to my usual 65 feet. 

    Wound up with 1 birdie, 8 pars, 4 bogies, 4 double boiges and 1 "other" - a 9 on the par 5 18th hole - saved most of my "mistakes" - including my only 3 putt for that
 hole !    Final score : 87 -- hmm --10 shots improvement in ONE round, same course, same weather, etc. Was it a "fluke" or a "breakthrough" ?

     Incidetally, I was playing with two younger men ( one about 35 the other maybe 45 to 50-ish) who wer playing from the BLUE tee (Back) while I was playing from the YELLOW (2nd tees, behind the Reds).  This usually had me playing about 50 to 75 yards in front of them and our drives, when they hit the fairway were at similar locations. But the consistently missed the fairways -- Long and Wrong in action.
     Finally on the 16th fairway, one of them wanted to know - "Just how old are you
- and how do you hit the ball so straight, so often ?" 
     

      Now to see if conitnues on Wednesday!

  Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG (except when you WANT them to curve)

  Amos

Standing in a relaxed position in standard street shoes (not thick-soled running or tennis shoes). If you've ever seen (or experienced) a proper suit fitting, it's the same stance.

Personally I prefer the four inch vertical break to finish a putt. ;-)