Myths & Misconceptions About Lie Angle

Robert
To add to below
I think you maybe misunderstood what I was getting at. I do not disagree with you. My home course as an example has a lot of senior players / family play I bring this up to players that we get hooked up with all the time about getting there lies etc checked all the time and they look at me like I am from another planet LOL. I talked to my fitter this weekend at are East / West cup about a question I had. My question was How often should one be refitted mine has been 3 yrs.? the reason for this questions was last weekend I played Sat and Sun. I shot 74 Sat. with 9 greens in reg. and shot 71 Sun. with 12 greens in reg. I played with a set of demo AP1's I have never hit this many greens with my mizunos even though I have scored good with them scrambling with the short game. The conclusion of the conversation was I am going to take those clubs to him to run the specs on them and compare them to mine and see what the difference is and possibly go through another fitting if need be or make adjustments to mine.
It will be interesting to see how this works out.

Certainly you need to have a fitting with a qualified, professional club fitter and builder. The Swing Surgeon Certified fitters are a good place to start finding one.

Thought 1% might be optimistic.

Yeah, his swing is a bit similar to Jim Furyk's in that complete turn of the lower body toward the target prior to impact.

Oh, I was happy with those shots. Just amused that they were still right of the flag when I tried aiming a good 10 yards left. Clearly my brain's idea of aimed left is not aimed so left. :) What annoyed me was that I'd sunk about 40 or 50 feet worth of putts on the previous 7 holes and couldn't sink a 5 footer and a 3 footer for birdies.

Steve I do not disagree with you are Robert I was getting at that when someone like Fuzzy says something like that some people take it for the gospel and a lot of people still think old school.
Robert was wandering why people were not responding to his question I just threw some thoughts out there.
My fitter runs into this argument on our tour all the time with some of the people on our tour when they start asking questions about fitting and clubs and you cannot convince them other wise. They still insist on buying off the rack even with the guys like me that have had work done by him and testify for him.
EDIT
Besides Fuzzy I seen Luke Donald do a whats in my bag about a year ago and made the comment that the irons he was playing Mizunos you could buy off the rack the only difference was the lie angles and he was playing stock DG s300 shafts.
This is why its hard to convince people to go to certified fitter builders.

No se pierda esos putts derecho? ¿Ha verificado su mentira ángulos?

Steve, sorry mate, was referring to the face-on pics, the one of Mickey Wright and the bottom pic with ball at head. both of these pics show some slight "reverse tilt", ie the spine angle still
forward of the ball at shoulder level. With the PPGS system it's
a bit more difficult to see where the spine angle is because the shoulder does'nt turn the full 90degree, but with rotational you get a much clearer picture. Both of the pics Iv'e referred to show some element of reverse tilt.

Steve, When I saw these pics, I immediately suspected some
slight "reverse tilt", place a set square on the screen and did find
that the spine was forward of the ball at the top. I was always told the spine should be backward of the ball position and I'm
assuming that the ball was centre of stance. Have you checked
where you are in a similar position.

Cool. As you know my observation was directed to the rest of the Surge Nation. The response so far indicates that either 1) they haven't read my challenge yet, 2) they don't care or think that lie angles don't really matter much and or 3) they by there silence indicate they have not checked and adjusted the lie angles on their irons in the last two years or ever. I indicated 'in the last two years' because if they play even only an average amount of golf per season they would be wise to check their irons every couple of years. It only takes a slight bit off to misdirect a well struck shot. I'm still waiting for more responses. Be shocked if they start pouring in, lol!

All of my clubs except the new 60* wedge have been checked and adjusted for lie angles. All the misses were from bad alignment, as they were consistent from club to club. I kept adjusting more and more to the left until I was actually on target.
As for the putts, those were just being stupid. I turned my whole body to look at the one drop in the hole, meaning that I pulled it, and the 5 footer I thought would break, since I was putting across the side of a hill, but it did not move an inch down the hill.

I must not have explained toe down droop well. You can not eliminate the toe down effect if you have any power and release in your swing. With the weight of a head on the end of a shaft exerting downward force as we swing, the shaft will have some bend thus the toe down effect. The only way to eliminate this would be a really stiff tipped shaft and a really weak swing. Otherwise, you get the lie angle adjusted to the swing and the shaft. Returning the hands to set up position will not eliminate the toe down effect.

Just catching up on things, here is my answer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

OBSERVATIONS FROM A REGULAR GUY
Do lie angles matter? I never even considered them important until about two years ago. Through personal experience both by a club fitting and more recently through tinkering on my own clubs with the tools I've purchased I would answer that question emphatically YES IT MATTERS more than most realize. I now own and use a lie board and loft and lie machine at home to check and adjust my own sticks. {I know most of you do not have these tools but most fitters or golf shops do and it's an inexpensive fix}.
Formerly, even after learning and practicing the Surge swing I still would find many of my shots going right of the target. Interestingly it was with only a few of my irons while others were more commonly on line. When having them adjusted I then realized why my nine iron was usually headed at my target and my 8i was often right of. 8i was too flat as were several others. Now when I miss a shot right or left I know it is my alignment and or swings fault and not the lie.
BTW, when having your lies adjusted a good club fix/fitter will also adjust your lofts so that they are gapped correctly between each club. this way we don't hit two clubs about the same distance but rather have a good differential.

Ping color codes all there irons and grips. The white dot would be a standard grip. 1 degree flat could be a red dot .75 flat or purple dot 1.5 flat in the irons for what its worth.

Steve, I think youv'e summed up what I already thought, ie for a learner or any one being in those positions at the top of the back swing and the knees being where they are, can only be trouble.

Great stills Steve. Your demo shows that in an actual dynamic swing that the toe down effect is not only from the shaft and head but seems to be caused by the centrifugal force too. The swing itself forces the angle that is set at address to become more upright. We notice that in both yours and Surges swings the hands to be moved forward or up and hence the shaft more vertical (lie angle more flat) at impact which in part also causes the club to be more upright and would therefore negate any toe up that one had at address. That was long winded but do we concur??
Translated that may explain why the client Doc mentions in the beginning actually needed his clubs bent more upright even though his club head looked way too upright at address.
Let me ask straight up to any reading this;
Have you had your current clubs checked for dynamic lie adjustments in the past two years or ever???? Be honest folks. If few or non answer in the affirmative than you all are missing out on what may be the cheapest and most important fix you can do now.
I'm listening.......................
BTW, Steve I know you have said your irons are among those tough to adjust so that was directed toward those with the courage to respond.
Again, Great pics Steve, really awesome!

What is different about the fairways at Lil Mole? Also it seems that changing your pattern for irons would mess up the driver. What I have seen on your You Tube postings would be really good for driver swings.

One way to get a different strike would to be to aim left and hit cut shots. This will let the club come down a little bit steeper and should lessen the sweep that doesn't agree with Lil Mole. Billy Casper used to play that way on Tour in the late 60's and early 70's. Fade the irons and draw the woods.

If you try it watch out for getting too steep. That is what is really hurting Tiger's distance control these days.

That's why we have certified fitters.

Kudos Doc. Nice to hear from you. One of my favorite subjects and likely the most neglected and most easily fixed. Really very well put Lynn. Hope you and the wife are well. She continues in our thoughts and prayers.

Yep. Two simple ways to check your dynamic lie, actually. One is with a lie board (and I'm sure with a little creativity, you could make one rather than buy one). The other is by putting a line on your ball with a regular marker (rather than the impact markers that you'd standardly use to mark a ball for play), and setting that line vertically to see how it transfers to the club.

Do not Disagree.

Marilyn, I too have small hands and it has been a problem of mine in the past. The hard skin callous on the heel of my lead [left] hand.While still in China, on one of my many whims, I started holding all my clubs two finger widths down from the line at the top of the grip.The difference was instant and satisfying.Obviously like many 'hackers' I was holding the club too high up the grip. This led to the club turning in my left hand or coming off the grip during the the swing.
On the later holes on my last round, I had forgotten to put my glove back on. This was something which previously would have left me sore on said callous. Well I played the rest of the holes with no discomfort or apparent problems. Nailed my wedges and short irons, and the longer [shortened] metal woods were good. I don't have thicker grips. They seem to be popular with some folk with grip problems.Maybe in years to come, I may have to use them,but for the moment, no thankyou. Good Luck. Hope the problem is resolved to the betterment of your game.
PS My wife has tiny hands and holds the club she sometimes has a hit with [not lately] with a wide split grip,ie, 3-4" apart, and the strangest set up imaginable and she hits the ball quite well. Embarrassing hahaha!

I agree with getting proper fit shaft length, Flex and Lie angle.
I would guess from the lack of response to your initial question is IMO that most of the people that come here live on fixed incomes wether they post or not .
I agree that checking and bending lie angles is relativity cheap. But from past experience I would say that people that play once a week or a couple times a month etc practice little to none at all are going to not spend the extra money on equipment are probably cant afford to.
These people usually just want to play and have fun and get the exercise. I can respect that.
Also to try and educate people on this is hard to do when you have guys like Fuzzy Z. on the golf channel make a comment such as when I was growing up we just had to get equipment off the rack and learn how to play with the equipment we had back then.
He also said taking lesson back then the instructor would show them the basics grip, stance, alignment and they had to find their own swing to fit them.
Personally with my fitting I play standard length clubs with what amounts to standard lie angles even though we bent them a little flatter to help with missing shots left.

In closing perfectly fitting clubs will only take you so far if you do not have a consistent repeatable swing to go with them.
All content in this post are just the ramblings of a weekend warrior and may or may not have anything to do with your original question.

Add
I have my lie angles checked every year and change grips every year somtimes twice a year.

Reminds me of the time I was a groomsman in one cousin's wedding. Everyone had gone to a local shop wherever they lived to get measured and those measurements were sent to the shop where they were renting the tuxes. I arrived the day before the wedding, and my cousin drove me straight from the airport to the tux shop because they'd been having so many problems with the tuxes having been measured incorrectly. I walked in, put on the tux, and it was a perfect fit. I told him, I live in Vegas. They know how to measure a tux.
Same with clubs. A lot of guys say they "fit" for clubs by taking some of the measurements, but that's as useless as taking some of the measurements in fitting a tux. See a real professional. (That admonition is not aimed at you, Steve, but at the casual reader)

Mike, I'm sure you reflect the feelings of many. Knowing and experiencing are the best teachers. Most are likely satisfied with what golf gives them with whatever clubs they have and whatever shape they're in. And I too am okay with that. Hell I played for 40+ years that way. I still say that even the 20+ handicapper would benefit from a simple lie angle check and fix. Same old clubs but suddenly going at the target more often. Oh well, it's just not an attractive option I suppose.
What ever...... :) Golf on

I use the WC myself. Oh, that's not what you meant.