Correct Amount of Forward Shaft Lean

Doc
 

They were bored out to accept parallel tips when they were rebuilt last October. I'm just changing them out to Lighter shaft for my son which is a 1 - 2 time a month player. Plus I will not be tempted to play them.
I had them sold to one of my buddy's but he said they were to heavy for him they were wearing him out late in the round. With the tip weights that were added to them when they were MOI ed they were kind of heavy
plus they were done to help correct a slight over the top move that I had.

Callum,

Here's a good link which tells, and even shows, how to properly register with Disqus. Good luck
http://conservatives4palin.com...

I don't think I am coming across since I have returned to the vertical swing because of the surge.   In a recent video I took (face on view) I noticed that after impact at about the 9 oclock position that the forearm of my forward arm (closest to the green) was higher than the trailing arm.  To me this appears to be not getting a release at impact as the arms should be level.

Don really touched on my big problem.  It is the worst with the driver and spills over a littlte with other woods and irons. I feel my issue is with release.  With the driver a natural swing (no attempt to alter face at impact) will result in a huge slice.  I do not think it is club fit because I can choke up to the shortest part of the grip and get the same results.  I have looked at some videos of my swing and it seems that my fore arms do not cross over after impact which means a wide open clubface. So I have tried working my wrists to roll over at impact; this helped but was unpredictable but occasional had teriffic shots.  Next I tried to roll the arms at impact; similiar results...some good shots but unpredictable.  It seems that the release for most people is a very natural thing; for me its a shot in the dark. For irons and hybrids i hit better shots but still unpredictable; some straight but many 5-15 degrees off line.  What can I do to get proper release for straight shots.  I have tried the impact bag, changing setup and ball positio,n changing spine angle and various other things.  When I take a full swing I have trouble squaring the face consistently.  Does anybody have some good drills for square up on release; most information seems to take it for granded

Satruday one of my friends that we play with once in a while said to me that he had never heard me cuss on the course which is normally true until Saturday I dropped a couple of bad words I did not want to tell him why but he was the issue he does not know the words play ready golf and had us  a hole and a half  behind the group in front of us that was walking and us on carts it was like all 3 days this past weekend .    

My golfing buddies call beer "aiming oil."

As I said below, check your grip. In addition, be sure that you're not tensing up your upper arms. If the forward upper arm gets tensed up, it'll block release. I find that the feel of the elbows drooping slightly while the forearms are firm gets me to the right place.

All you avid golfers out there who are trying to be the best you can be--pay attention to what Steve wrote when he said, "If I didn't know what my swing needs to do to be successful I would have no way to make adjustments."  He has taken the conversations on this blog to a new level.  I didn't write what I'm about to write before today because I didn't know if the blog was ready for it or not.  What Steve is talking about is called "closed loop learning" in learning theory, which is something good.  The opposite is called "open loop learning," which is ineffecrive and inefficient.   This means that open loop learning can work in gifted learners, but less likely in those less than gifted.  Closed loop learning means that you have to have  a clear understanding of the swing you are trying to learn, and you have to be able to feed back information about your swing into the "closed loop" learning system.  That's why videos are so valuable--you get to see  yourself and feed that information back.  If you don't have video, then having someone try to mimic your swing can help you with the feedback.  Seeing the path of the ball (the outcome) is ok, but not as good as the imagery you get from video and from someone mimicing your swing.  Bottom line--closed loop learning takes you out of pure trial and error learning, where you keep swinging until the ball does what you want it to do.

Hi, Kevin and anyone else interested in closed loop learning (also known as leaning with feedback) and open loop learning (learning without feedback).  Suppose you had some lessons in throwing darts, or simply watched an expert throw darts, and then threw darts at a target you weren't allowed to see.  Then supposed that you were only told if you missed the target or not.  You would have to just keep trying by trial and error, each time listening for whether you hit the target or not and which direction you missed.  If  you were a competent learner, you might be able to deduce a pattern in your adjustment, based on what  you perceived to be the correct mechanics.  That would be open loop learning--very little information being fed back into your brain.

Beating balls on the driving range,  one after another, trying to make corrections based only on what you perceived to be the correct mechanics is similar to the above example.

But if you had video of your mechanics, you could compare it with the image you had of the correct toss, and you would now be starting closed loop learning.  Ditto if an expert told you how your mechanics differed from the mechanics that he knows you are trying to learn.

There are other ways to add feedback in your learning, such as relating the senses into the swing, both in the holistic feel of the swing and in the feel of the dots (back to the "dots" again.)  Then there is the proper energizing of the various muscles--you can't see this simply by observing someone swing, and also the mental state.  We normally have be told this information unless we are fortuante enough to stumble on it on our own. 

However, nothing's perfect, and I suspect (without reading anything about it) that you can feed back too much information or conflicting information, causing confusion, so self-learning might be difficult if you haven't gone through a lot of previous sports learning and can draw from your past experiences.

I guess I'm making a case for seeing your professional for instruction.  I didn't start out to do this, but all roads seem to be  leading  there.

Jperiman,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't these your posts from the past. Remember, everything you put in a post, can and often will, come back to bite you in the behind.

On---- How Important Is Tee Height? - The Surge's Daily Blog 3 months ago

Surge,,
I'am having a heck of a time trying to stay behind the
ball..Sometimes,, I get so far ahead of the ball that I drive the club into the ground and hit it fat or hit it in the middle of the ball and it goes along the ground.. I go into the catchers mit and up the tree,,
Then from there my whole body wants to go thru the ball..Having a hard time with this..Please help...

On---Limited Turn and Lite Club last year

I can go to the catchers mit,,I can go up the tree to 12:00,,But when I swing I hit everything heavy or top the ball..Do you have a drill for this from the top???

It seems you were not quite as proficient at the PPGS then, as you are now claiming to be. I do congratulate you on your hole in one and hope and wish you the best of enjoyment on the course, BUT, PLEASE, stop being critical of those who wish to help one another with our own experiences. Remember what the Surge says about the domino effect. This swing has a very lot of domino's to it. We are just trying to keep them all in check.

Best wishes to you and yours.

All clubs except perhaps the driver have some amount of forward shaft lean based on the angle of the face and how they are intended to be hit. The same action of soling the club and lining your body up to it so that the shaft points at your forward hip should work for every club, including the driver (where the ball is essentially in line with your forward hip).

I won't correct you, since it's exactly what I do. If it's "wrong," I'll stay wrong. ;-)

Charlie,

Your insightful comments are always greatly appreciated. Keep them coming.

I have tried a number of different shafts in my Ping i-3 Blades. What needed to be done was to have them bored out to accept parallel shafts. It seems there are a lot more choices available in parallel. Currently using the True Temper GS75 S200 + 1" and absolutely love them.

The RX for it is not available in Ohio and my last hit was in the 70's, but I do like a few beers now and then on the course. I find a couple or three a side actually have a calming/mellowing effect on the swing. Sort of helps the body relax and loose the tension which often kills a swing.

It's the one situation where drinking might actually help your driving. Or at least my driving.

PMG

Steve has some great advice, and as Neil says, don't try flipping your wrists around as you will not get a consistent result. My big suggestion would be that you may want to check your grip. Most likely you are not correctly gripping the club and that's impeding the proper action of your arms through the ball and keeping you from getting the face square at impact. Go to your local pro shop or big box store and ask them about a training grip, just to hold it in your hands and see how it feels relative to how you normally grip the club.

In addition to that, you may want to invest in a SwingRite, which Doc Griffin sells with the training grip on it (for less than you can get it from the SwingRite web site).

After grip, lay out lines and double and triple check your body alignment, feet, knees, hips, and shoulders.

Great story, I've been on both sides of that one. A man has to know his limitations. You want the Goldilocks dose, just right.

Don

Another great video. Also thank you for all your free video tips and not asking for membership fees to view them like other sites.

Jperiman. First I agree that we should just"enjoy the game and some fresh air and being alive and yada yada yada" Yes you're right BUT you need to undestand something. Most of are serious about improving our swings and results. That's why we are on a golf teachers site and are always talking about how to improve. We ocassionally get off golf topic and talk about family and what ever because we also promote and enjoy a family environment here. For the most part though we are blogging here because we want to get better. Sometimes we moan about  our failures and brag about a good day on the golf course. So understand we are golf nuts that want to improve. So if we sound a little intense on ocassion you'll understand.
Now go out and "enjoy" your rounds of golf pal. Maybe I'll some day be the 80+ year old guy who just chills out regardless of results and enjoys a day of playing golf. One can only hope.
PMG!!

Thanks Robert. Love your new pic!

Phillip

Im with you on that idea T. We play 9 hole twilight over summer here once a week after work and a couple of beers on the way can make all the difference to a relaxed game. Espeacialy after a days work.    Cheers Russty

My limber atheletic grandfather loves the Surge swing!!!...he is also wealthy and friendless!!

I really struggled with this in the early days of learning the swing but this was probably mainly due to other set up issues with grip etc. I just couldn't get the FSL , the only way would be to alter my grip but it is becoming more natural now.

Just got to say I have just viewed Situational shots and working the ball videos and really enjoyed them and will continue to in the future!
It made me think that actually in golf we don't make as many bad shots as we think its just that we don't know how we made the shot so didn't intend the shot in the first place.

When watching Surge explain and hit the shots I can relate to it and it is clear then how I hit some shots that I do. Like the fade or fade to slice by under releasing with a open club face which I am battling to fix, I just cannot get the release correct and just continue my forward path then the left elbow pulls back and flies like Surge explains in working the ball video. Then to fix this I will then over release and maybe flip the wrists resulting in a bad hook or straight left. All of this then just leads to confusion and having a fix to fix a fix so these videos I am sure will help me to understand what shot I have just hit to get me back on track to hitting straight. The hitting the straight shot is great as it shows you in a nut shell how to do this swing so I am going back to this first.
Really happy I purchased them!
Thanks Surge. 

Having played golf with you, I'm not sure I can picture you even at 80 being chilled out and just enjoying it. ;-)

You are probably right Robert. The only way it would happen is if I have a perscription for "special" tabacco by then. It amazes me how many people I know that do have that perscription now legally yet their ailments are questionable.

Just some general queries;

- Are there any tour pros that use the PPGS?

- Is there anyway on this blog that I can manage my comments etc, and find out directly who has replied to me, instead of finding my search each time.

Regards,
Callum

I have found the easiest way for me to get this FSL is to grip the club with the left hand only, place behind the ball with correct ball postion, load heavy right then simply place you right hand on the grip, this then also puts your right hand/arm in the right position which I just couldn't get right. After this point I set my grip pressure and hover club head behind the ball, doing this I find also puts the rest of the swing on track.
I have by all  means not got the Surge swing yet but doing this has been another jigsaw puzzle, anyone please correct me if you think this is wrong.   

The Surge swing is so much fun to play golf with..I'am not trying to Win a million Dollars and I want to enjoy the Game..You Guys get to complicated and should lighten up on the net picking of the golf swing..Most people Don't even Break 100 becUSE THEY HAVE NO aTHLETIC aBILITY BUT THEY PLAY FOR eNJOYMENT WITH THEIR fRIENDS.trying to instruct them about what you are saying would tie them up in knotts and they would never play again..Is that what you want??????????? Old people play cause they have nothing else to do..And could not afford the high prices of a golf Lesson anyway and thier bodies are not able to practice very much..Lighten up Guys..life is complicated enough.Excluding the Surge,, Those who can't teach..

Yes that would be the one looked like a great shot to me. If we were as perfect as Don and DJ we would not be on here we would be out trying to make a easy check out on tour.

One of my freinds that I play with every once in a while ordered some shafts KBS tour 90 stiff to change his shafts in his irons and they sent him R flex I bought them from him  and took my APII's apart last night since I am not playing them and going to install them in the APII's it will be interesting to see the outcome they had stiff flex in them which felt to stiff and heavy. They should be 30 - 35 grams lighter than what they were. Plus when trimming them I am going to make them a 1/2 shorter than what I was fit into. I was am bored and will be a interesting expirement to see if I can get better control with the shorter shafts my Mizuno 5 iron is 38" so I am cutting to 37.5 on the APII 5 iron.  

 

Maybe it's really late at night and I'm delerious but this actually makes alot sense to me Steve. No seriously I like the concept of moving ourselves until our natural release point has us hitting the ball straighter. I know I definately "steer" my swing too much as I want so badly to have the right timing and form throughout my swing. I long for the day when I can just feel the swing and swing the feel without worrying whether I will push or pull the ball. That's one of the reasons I've played around with my grip so much the last few weeks.When I seem to grip it just right and set up square it is amazing how awesome the ball flight can be, right where I am aiming.
The very next time out I literally don't feel right over the ball though I haven't consciously changed anything. This is why my consistency is inconsistent. Hmmmmn..... I guess I can count on that at least.
   Maybe R2's drill will fix it. That's one thing about a golf fanatic, we always feel tomorrow we'll get it right and play our best.

I had to redo my DISQUS set up so I figured I would change it up a little

Darren, how right you are about the basics.  And sometimes, only one or two need to be off to ruin your swing, as you will try to make all kinds of compensatory moves to make up for it.  That's what makes this game so difficult.

If only we could always play with someone else who really knows the Swing Surgeon swing and can tell us when we are doing something wrong.  My buddy who also uses the Swing Surgeon swing has that luxury because he plays with me, and I can often tell him what he's doing wrong.  (I'm not so lucky with the vice versa, though.) 

Short of that, you need to constantly monitor yourself through the use of video, and also to occasionally rewatch all Don's videos to pick up things you may be forgetting to do. 

T1, it seems to me that you are focusing too much on "releasing of the wrists"
whereas I think Don would say forget the wrists, the action is from the arms ie
pronation. Robert F made it clear to me one day when he told me PALMS
VERTICAL and or THUMBS-UP in the BUS and FUS. This action leads to greater
arm speed, quicker release and square club face at the bottom of the FUS. I had
your problem for years until now, belting a 3W some times well past 200M, due
to the above action that Robert described.      

shortgamewizard
These are parallel tip shafts. I currently playing Mizuno JPX 800 pros that have been MOI matched. The APII'S were stolen from my house back in January and got them back in March after I had these mizunos rebuilt. I am reshafting them because the shafts that were in them are to stiff and over all weight of the clubs were to heavy IMO I may end up giving them to my son that is just taking up the game but the were to much club for him the way they were,

Steve

NOT NIT PICKING just curios was watching your last video and it looks like your right hand grip position is a little strong do you hit draws ?

I notice with my self that in a neutral grip I have bend in my left wrist at address at the top of the BUS it is flat. The only way that I can have it flat at adress is to have a weak left hand grip v pointing to left ear shoulder. Maybe I am deformed or something I do have really thick hands. Back when I taught myself and play really well off Jacks Golf my Way I had a weak left and grip and a strong right hand grip which they nuetralized each other but that grip worked and a instructor that I saw that followed Jacks method would not change it. I have been messing with a reverse overlap at the range which has been helping me get to the top of the FUS over the forward shoulder and recoiling to the T finish. This is a area that I have been struggleing. Have not tried it on the course yet might this weekend.

Played this past Sunday and Monday did not play real well. Monday it was in the  low 60's and real windy Shot 43 on the front nine had a lot of shots come up short and so on. On the back 9 shot 38 but was pissed I was even par going into the par 5 16th hit a nice drive and great lay up with my 5 wood to about 60 yards the flags on this course have the little flags for pin placement and it was down low meaning front edge placement behind this little hump so I hit a sw landed on the hump thinking it would bounce on but it just sat down in the rough when I got to my ball the pin was in the middle of the green and I bogied the hole. I should of could of lasered it but did not and went on to bogie the next to holes.      

This may just be one of my senior moments, but ...

When I properly grip my club (in this case, my 9-iron), flatten my left wrist, and take my address position, my club head is about two balls inside my right heel with the butt end pointed to just inside my left hip joint. I know that Surge plays everything from 7-iron to wedges in the middle of his stance. For each of my clubs, gripping and positioning as I do, the ball position moves progressively forward with each club. When I do this, I tend to get greater gaps in club distances than with a consistent ball position. With a consistent ball position in the middle of my stance, the butt of the club points to my belt buckle. To get the butt toward the left hip, I either have to turn my shoulders slightly left or slightly bow my left wrist. Any suggestions in how to correct this, or is it not a problem? When I minimize the angles with varying ball position, I manage to hit pretty good shots with slightly greater club head speed. Should I just stick with what is working?

I tried all the things you described until I watched a site called Talygolf and this showed me that I was flipping at the ball and not maintaining the power I had created in the shaft of the club.I didn't need to buy his swing aid,it was his explanation that helped me and sure it will help you.I looked at all the sites associated with this aid to understand the proper concept.Hope it helps you out aswell.

That would diffidently chill you out do not know how well a person would play being stoned. I do not even like drinking beers while playing.

I think I am registered on DISQUS, about 75% sure. Will i find it in account settings?
Many thanks