What Goes Around, Comes Around, When To Stop Arm Rotation

your discription on over turning was helpful.....my desire is to learn how to control the trajectory of the ball....any info plus drills will b appreciated......crc

Food Network Alert!

I like mine poached runny over shredded hashbrowns with cholulah hot sauce and black pepper.

Hit'em Long and Straight!
Bob

P.S.  I agree with your sentiment.  Come Back Dick Lee!!!

Dragonhead,
I just have to applaud your witty, keen and spot on response to our dear visitor. You were polite yet ever so pointed and intelligently clear. I really enjoy the words that roll out in your inspiring posts. Oh and we certainly notice your delightful humor that always brings a smile :)
Cheers

I'd like that a ton.  I'll have to find a cheap set of wheels and a bit of escape time.  I'm not sure what my schedule looks like during the first few weeks, but I hope to make  a Robert round a reality sooner than later.

Bob

Coach:

    YOU are sounding like Dick Lee now --- with the breakfast menu!!  ersonally, I prefer my eggs scrambeld - but to each his own

    Amos

This I rate one of your best revision video. You control the club - so you are in charge and thus follow the Serge swing path. Great advice and again useful to all students. Thanks

EGH

Buy the "Working The Ball"-CD. It's very instructive and well worth the price.

Dear M.T., I am a life member and I thought a couple of remarks you can expound on:#1                 is: there are only two swings in golf, one being the release swing and the other is the block swing. The part of the ball you hit is going to determine which swing will be used. #2 is when teaching the student to take the club back in a certain direction: When hitting a golf shot you are always facing North. You take the club back to the East and then to the sky.On the downswing and follow through you take the club to the West and then to the sky. You never let your hands go South. Just food for thought and you might not agree....Keith Eynon PGA, Life member

Well put Mr. Robert!
BTW are you going to play Angel Park this week?

Robert,

I have not noticed any significant improvement as yet. I bought the 4 bottle pack with 120 per bottle, so, I'll know by then if it's working or not, before having to re-invest. I'm still hopeful.

We'll see you here Amos!! It's going to be an amazing week.

See http://swingsurgeon.com/DailyV... and http://swingsurgeon.com/DailyV... for some information from Surge, but as A-thunem says, the "Working the Ball" video goes into much more detail and is well worth the price. I had the opportunity to preview them and still bought them when they came out as I want to be able to have them with me to watch back and go over again and again.

Well Fellow Surge Nation Citizens,

I tied up some loose ends business wise yesterday, and am concentrating on my upcoming trip to SoCal for Golf College. 

I spent $150.00 for a travel case for my babies.  I sure hope they survive the trip.  I also spent $150.00 on a new Wishon Four wood.  I pick it up tomorrow, and hope to use it once or twice before my flight out on Monday.

I'm also hoping to get a chance to meet Derek Hardy.  His operation isn't too far away from Temecula, where I will be enrolled.  It will be interesting to get some feedback from someone with actual knowledge of the swing.  Here in Alaska, nobody teaches the Surge Swing, so I am self taught.  I'm sure that a little time with Derek will be both exciting and rewarding.

I plan on posting every week about my experiences at PGCC, using Face Book.  I'm sure I can get help from my teenagers to make things look good. I'll also post here for the benefit of those who aren't into Face Book.

Hit'em Long and Straight,
Bob

Neil, all great thoughts from Robert, DH and Booger. I would add perhaps a couple of thoughts. One, in thinking about your point concerning the"torso is turning" I think just maybe you are over turning you body and that is making it difficult to go up. Have you videotaped your swing focusing on your knees and hips to see if you are limiting your turn and especially keeping that left knee quiet? As I mentioned the other day in response to your challenges to the "unnaturalness" of the vertical backswing I found that I was turning too much and that was making getting vertical very hard for me. Did you consider the drill I gave you. I would ask you to go back and have a look at that post which has several suggestions that have worked for me.
The second thing I would reiterate here is that the right arm, starting with the "master set up" position and allowing the right arm to "fly" to the extent of allowing that right elbow to come up as Surge has recomended several time is key to getting vertical and feeling more natural in doing so.
  Again Jack Nicklaus had his back elbow up high on his backswing and was very vertical in that backswing. Though he was often accused of having a "flying elbow" it work out fairly well.
  You'll get there. We're all working on it.

Just had a soft boiled egg and was disappointed! Wanted French bread using Chinese homemade Mantou instead of other bread. Just delivered to the breakfast table Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaa! Come home Dick Lee.

Gottcha pal. Just let me know. Too, if you can make any 9 before 8's on Sat-Tuesday. Thanks for all your helpful posts, they are well thought out and are helping many new and old :)

NeilofOZ Keeping your nose pointing at the ball and when your chin rests on the upper crease of your leading arms bicep. When we are there, we have turned enough and  should only be pushing up from there.My chin tells me when I have gone far enough.
Remember the old 'stick 'em Mister' position [Surge's Cactus hands in the air drill]in cowboy movies? Surge demonstrated this in one of the videos during the last few days. Everything we 'fanatical golf nutjobs' do when we try something new, is overdo it! I was having problems when practicing in China, until I said to myself impatiently, "Just do it" Perhaps you just need to just do it too. Joining up the dots sometimes seems to inflict paralysis by analysis on us.
If the arms are rotated too much, then we are automatically in the SBG and......all that it brings with it : - (
The T finish and recoil, now just seems to happen  with me now. My arms must rotate without me thinking about them. The only downside, is I can't wear my Akubra hat now  when swinging up to the T finish.
Keep it long and vertical

 Tom,
Thanks for this detailed and outstanding story of the PPGS background and the success it has had. I really appreciate how specific and helpful your comments are. Thanks for taking the time to add to our blog. I am also aware of how much you put into making this the best site ever for us all. Please relay our thanks to the rest of the SwingSurgeon staff.
Ps. Are you joiming us in Las Vegas in September? It would be an additional privelege to meet you during that special week.
Robert M.
PMG!

Robert, am slowly understanding the mechanics now and have been doing exaclty
as you suggested, but the feeling is totally different from what I perceived.  My point
is that this action is not natural and must be contrived, even more so with a club.
Some poeple who may have very little athletic ability and or experience like myself,
find this action awkward at the onset, it must be ingrained, first by a conscious action and then developed un-conciously. I've read coaching articles in the past where at least 1,000 actions are required to change any action in a golf swing
before they can take effect, more so from any person who has little experience
in hand/eye/club co-ordination.

Don't get me wrong, the Surge's technique is starting to work for me, but it's been
a long haul. Played 9 holes this morning and really worked hard on the FUS to
a T finish, hit some lovely shots even out drove some of my mates with a 3W
versus the driver. I have a mindset now that I can reach any green in regulation,
it doesn't aways happen, but I'm getting there. 

This site is a big bonus in learning the art of golf, thanks to all who contribute.
     

I've given alot of thought to Neils challenge concerning the "unnaturalness" as he put it of the Surge swing. First of all my dear old Dad always told me that if my grip and set up were comfortable it was probably wrong. In reviewing many of our key instructional videos the past two days I have come up with some specifics that Surge says are keys and that have been key for me and many others who are finally getting vertical in the BUS.

It would be very important and key for Neil and anyone else being challenged to get vertical in the BUS to study carefully the "Master set up" video in the 'revised video series'. Many old timers to Don's teaching may remember that he refered to this as the FAD - Forward Arm Dominant until about a year ago. BAD was (and still is) Back Arm Dominant. There is some confusion and misunderstanding about the back arms role compared to the front arm. Part of our challenge is that the back arm for righties is he right arm which for most of us is our "naturally" dominant arm. When talking about the rock on a string concept Surge shows that it is the front (or left arm for righties) that needs to be "The Boss". It is the string in the BUS and the right arm and club become the string in the impact through completion part of the Upswing. Stay with me here......

Okay so with that background this is what Don says(in that master set up video) about the master set up at around the1:29 mark when getting into the master set up position, "At this point this IS SOMEWHAT OF AN UNNATURAL POSITION...." However it allows for a more natural rotaion and lift intio the mit and up the tree into the vertical position in a smoother more natural way.
      Neil, the point here is we have to practice getting ourselves into that "somewhat unnatural" position in our set up to get a more natural feeling and result in getting vertical. I think this may be your key to unlocking this swing for greater success.
      I am also convinced (and no one else seems to have addressed this) that your feeling the need to keep your hands anti-clockwise as you go back is completely harmful and counterproductive. Again in the master set up video Surge points out that keeping that back arm high will lead to the irresistable re-action of flipping or being forced to go flat at some point in your BUS.

In our recent daily videos Surge has pointed out the important role of the back(or right hand for most) and that is to control the amount of rotation as our left(or front arm) reaches the toeline and we continue back and up and then in our forward swing as the right arm reaches the toeline and becomes the string.

Neil, I have been following your posts but because of not hearing back from you and hearing that you are at least working on these suggestions with an open mind I am feeling you may be getting frustrated and feeling like your just not getting it. Am I wrong? I'd like to hear from you Neil, not just the usual responders on what I have suggested based on what Surge teaches.
     Whether I hear bak from you or not I feel that the above suggestions will help you eventually get the naturalness in the BUS you seek.
Hope this help,

Robert Meade
PMG!!
PS. And this is more than an after thought, when is the last time you watched the bonus videos? All of them but especially but especially #4 'takeaway' and #5 'setup'.
Both refer to and demonstrate with DJ the BAD or master set up. Note especially at 10:50 in the 'set up' video the words, "The final and MOST IMPORTANT elliment of this is......."
What follows may be again the most important instruction Surge and DJ give to setting up and determining our motion.

Here's something else to try, Neil. Stand up with your hands hanging in front of you. Accordion into a normal setup position and swing your arms up to the top of your back swing and down through impact up to a T-Finish. Note the position of your hands as you do this. If you're like me, you'll note that your hands naturally stay with the palms perpendicular to the ground. This IS the natural motion of your arms. The only thing in the golf swing that changes it is the weight of the club extending at an angle from your hands. Keep making the motion with your empty hands for a while, and then pick up a club and tell yourself that you are going to make exactly the same motion.

Three over easy please, I'm hungry now!! 

Hello Surge,
I like this one! I will try the tips to get little firm up the tree. Yesterday when I was practicing on the range I could see the difference on 9 iron.
Sometimes it stopped at 100 m and 5 m to the right but when I was able to get it right it went over the flag and stopped at 115 m. It is huge difference.  My problem is also to time the buckle. I am  aware of your 1 to 2 inches  of movement but I have a hard time to start ringing the bell and buckle. Any special drill on this you have not published.
To end this mail I am asking if you have any certified pro here in the Nordic? I do live in Sweden ( Göteborg on the west coast)  and as we are huge golfing country ( 500K golfers ( members in a golf club)  of a population of 9 M)  I think it has the be room for that.
Thank you for your daily tips and your helpful and friendly attitude. Very much appreciated and I am doing my best to spread your word among my friends. However my two boys who a scratch players are very skeptical to my new swing.
Sincerely
PerOlof

Robert,

God willing and the creek don't rise, I'll be in Vegas--someone has to record all the great instruction, golf and general fun y'all are going to have!

Seriously, I really look forward to meeting all the Surgites who can make it that week. I feel as if I already know so many of you that contribute so much to the richness of our daily discussions.

Tom J.

What I call the drooping right elbow, yep. If you watch footage of Steve Stricker, you'll see exactly the same position in his setup.

I was thinking about that recently - how these "parameters" that are given, we really need to work out for ourselves the swing thought(s) that make us work within them.
For some I guesse the catchers mitt, tree works well. I've never worn a catchers mitt nor had a catcher behind me. I just count one two, turn, lift. Im doing the same thing of course. I just know when im done with turning my forward arm and shoulder are in the right place, no more turning, just lifting.  Dont need to hit a "wall", that one didnt help me either.

The bump never worked for me... when I thought about it like that, I couldnt sequence it reliably.  A martial artist since 8, I can pretty well demonstrate where the real root of power is behind a punch or kick, how to generate explosive force in a short movement. Once Id connected those dots, my "bump" sorted itself out just fine. For someone else, Im sure another thought will put it right.

Recent videos from Don have been excelllent, really helpful in clearing things up on the BUS and FUS.

Second useful thing was to video the swing, during a real round of golf. It amazing to see how what you are doing can deviate so much from what you think you are doing at crunch time.  Its pretty hard to see what you are doing in a golf swing, from inside it.
We can get good at dextrous things in front of us, there is immediate visual feedback, a control loop. But we live inside of a golf swing and its like a system without that control loop. You can set it up once and it'll be good for a while but there is a danger it will drift from calibration. It needs re-calibrating every now and then, and you need the feedback to do it.
Ill be looking forward to this video review service from Don's team, when it becomes available.
Happy golfing!

 Classic T, great to hear from you. BTW hows the cm8 going for you. I have been taking it now for 3 and a half weeks and I will now cautiously say I think it's actually starting to help. You notice any results yet?

Actually, in regards to it's support of weight or pressure, the egg is much stronger, when standing straight up end to end. If you lay it on it's side it becomes very weak and fragile,. However, I usually prefer mine over easy with a little sausage, hash browns, and rye toast. Is anybody else getting hungry?

You have started your quest with closed eyes, ears and mind. One cannot expect to travel far or correctly, with those faculties shut down. You have reached your destination, before even starting the journey. How is that even possible. If you do not know where you are going, How will you know when you get there?

Open thine eyes, that thou mayest see
Open thine ears, that thou mayest hear
Open thy mind, that thou mayest believe.

Take the journey properly, follow the road map closely. You can THEN EXPECT, to arrive at the correct destination. For now, you are but a lost sheep, wandering about, not knowing which way to go.

PMG

Return soon Dick, I/we miss you.

 The Robert round sounds great guys!!
Definitely keep us posted on the school you lucky dog. Really excited for you Bob.
Who knows I may end up going that route to persue another career before long. Sure would be cool.
Good luck.

First off, I apologize to one and all for the length of this comment but I thought I should jump in with some facts that will help everyone who is following this thread.

Ghilton, somehow it sounds to me as if you haven't learned the Peak Performance Golf Swing correctly. Have you purchased Don's PPGS Swing Series video and manual or are you just trying to piece the swing together from watching his daily tips? If you are taking the latter approach, then I can see why you have come to think they way you do. Don's swing theory has little in common with what rotational instructors teach so if you haven't invested a little time and money to fully learn the swing as it is meant to be learned, please give it a try. I can assure you it won't be a wasted effort if you work at it a bit.

Now to answer some of the questions you and other commentators have raised in this posting.

In actual fact, Don's swing theory has been studied in depth by a number of prominent medical doctors, physiologists and scientists who are consistent in their opinion that the Peak Performance Golf Swing is the first and only golf swing that does faithfully follow the laws of physics and physiology. Back in the mid-90s, there was a study done at Cal State-Fullerton that took a group of 24 rotational swingers (median age 37.9 years, median handicap 17.4) who described themselves as having a "long golf backswing". Each player was fitted with small markers that enabled the cameras (face on and down-the-line) to track three specific points: The intersection of the shaft and club head, the end of the grip near the golfer's left hand and the tip of the right shoe. High speed video cameras were used so that the digitized output could be loaded into the Ariel Performance Analysis System (APAS). This computerized system uses multiple angle video images to produce three dimensional data on human movement. The study measured Club Head Velocity (CHV) throughout the entire length of the test subject's swing up to the point of impact as well as the total number of degrees of arc the club head achieved through impact. The hypothesis being tested was that a shortened backswing did not result in any significant loss of CHV at impact. No other components of the swing were measured in this study.

The test procedure was this: After warming up, each student was simultaneously filmed from two different angles and five swings with their own 7-iron were recorded and the data derived from these swings were entered into the database. In all, 120 swings were recorded and analyzed. After all 24 students completed their rotational swings, Don conducted a group lesson where the instruction was limited to factors within the backswing and FUS (through impact) phase of the golf swing. Once he verbally covered the material he worked individually with each student as he or she hit balls. Once he was satisfied that these rotational swingers had learned enough about the backswing, each player went through the same testing procedure described above.

The results?

1. This group of rotational swingers, who achieved a minimum of 270 degrees of arc in their long backswing testing, were successful in learning how to significantly shorten their backswing (in just one short lesson, I might add)

2. During the initial portion of the downswing, the rotational swing did achieve CHV values that were higher than those achieved using Don's vertical swing.

3. However, as the club head approached and then traveled along the target line, this advantage in CHV for the rotational swing diminished rapidly until at impact there was no difference in CHV between the two swing styles.

4. Finally (and perhaps most importantly) the analysis showed that the rotational swing actually produced negative acceleration as the club head approached the ball while the vertical swing was actually accelerating at the point of impact.

And isn't that what Surge is always trying to say when he quotes Dr. Alastair Cochrane about the four things that have to happen to hit a good golf shot? For those who haven't seen Dr. Cochrane's work, here is what he said:

1: The club has to approach the ball ON the aiming line.
2: The club has
to contact the ball while still ON the aiming line and the face has to
be  SQUARE to the line.
3: the club had to leave accelerating while still ON the
aiming line.
4: you must hit it Solid or in the sweet spot.

The Surgism for this is:  ON, ON and ON, SQUARE AND SOLID.

Other members have held up DJ as an example of what can be achieved with this swing. As impressive as his amateur and pro career have been he isn't the only one who has achieved phenomenal results with this swing. Derek Hardy, a long-time advocate of Don's vertical swing, and our West Coast Director of Golf Instruction, taught LPGA Hall of Famer Beth Daniel this swing starting when she was just 14 years old. He remained her swing coach all the way through her amateur and professional career where she twice won the U.S. Women's Amateur, the LPGA Championship and 35 other LPGA tournaments. She is also a member of the World Golf Hall of Fame. Derek's had two other students who played the LPGA who both had unbelievable careers too. Sally Little (winner of 2 majors-LPGA Championship, du Maurier Classic) and Jane Geddes (U.S. Open Winner).

From where I sit that's pretty solid evidence that that this swing really does work as advertised.

Tom Jans

Is it possible to lose your balance just because your balance stinks?

I've been working on this swing some, because I have terrible back and hip problems. I've been down to a 4 handicap recently, so I know how to strike a ball and play the game pretty well. Lately, I've been falling forward (toward the target line) after a shot. I just figured it was my back and naturally bad balance, but I suppose it could be execution.

The Surge swing certainly is easier to execute for someone who's past retirement age, I'll give it that. By the way, I'm 6 feet tall, and I have short arms for my height. 

Any thoughts?

SURGE:

    Thank YOU for your answers. WOW -- an enitre daily video on my problems.

     You are absolutely correct sir - -the root cause of my problems is balance -- specifically a weak left ankle coupled with a slightly weak right hip.
      So far the best "work around" that I have discovered on my own is a slighlty wider stance with more flare on the forward foot.  The left ankle seems to tolereate front to back motions, but refuses to accept any rotary motion.

      Looking forward to meeting you in Las Vegas and geting some "hands on" help

     Keep hitting them STRAIGHT and LONG

     Amos

Kevin,
I really like that style of practice and often do the same thing. It emulates real golf on the course and becomes a more realistic way of practicing. It's a great way to change things up too.

Liked this one, which again emphasizes the T Finish and staying in dynamic balance. The message to me, is Power Under Control is the secret. Nice one Surge and well done Amos being mentioned. Keep it long and straight up to a T Finish my friend

Crcgolfer

Don just released a video entitled "Working The Ball" and he shows you how to precisely change your launch angle in great detail. It's available in Surge's Shop.

Well said.  You just cant think your way through a golf swing AND sequence it right. You need to simplify it into terms you can work with in practice, and eventually disengage from thinking during play, swing the feel.  In helping a 120+ scoriing golfer in despair recently, it became apparent to me the "swing thoughts" that we arrived at to make the right things happen were quite different to my own.

He's gone from 15 bad shots & mis-hits of every kind in a row, to launching 15 balls straight to target.  1 more coming your way Don :)

Sounds like you're saying that the hands swing in front of the body. I think I've heard that somewhere, and I know I certainly agree. ;-)

PerOlof, great to hear from you in Sweden.Absolutely wonderful that the Surge nation is truly International. One man's bump is another man's buckle, Surge has done many daily's concerning the bump,Doc Griffin and the other instructors have as well.The bump is a natural movement to get your weight transferring to the left foot & side,more so the outside of the left foot. One drill Surge uses and recommends is the  door jam drill.Where you set up with your feet and hip about an inch or so from the inside of the door and gently take your hip and bump the door frame.You can also do this drill to any wall, as well.
 If you use the search feature at the top of the page typing in "bump"  you'll find many blog references to the bump. I've included one that may help you.
http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ol...
Happy Golfing

Hey surge I seem to hit my best shots when the club comes up over my left shoulder and the head of the club hits me in my wallet in my right back pocket. when I struggle with my ball striking I have noticed that I wont be getting that feeling and I almost always find that I am over rotating. I struggle to get myself to stay out of the sacred burial ground especially when I am under pressure in a match any ideas? thanks Dirt digger

Surge, the issue of rotation/over rotation I believe is the No. 1 cause of difficulty when trying to apply the vertical swing. Like Amos, I find it totally unnatural in resisting
rotation in the forearms in the BUS. When your torso is turning as it should be in
the 3/4 position, it is so natural to follow the same path of your spine with your arms,
but like you said you have to find a method of resisting the continued rotation of the
arms in order to go vertical, this is not natural. From my perspective I'm mentally
thinking of rotating my forearms anti-clockwise in the BUS, which does bring the club
up more vertical, but I suppose every one will have a different thought process, hoping
this helps Amos.       

Crcgolfer

Don just released a video entitled "Working The Ball" and he shows you how to precisely change your launch angle in great detail. It's available in Surge's Shop.

Don, you worked yourself breathless in this video....  Up and down is out of plane to the club. I can't believe this works.  I've tried and its just not consistnet with the body physics....Also, the up and down makes the bottom of the swing too shallow and allows very little error. We should turn the egg on its side like Dough Sanders. Extend back and exend throug... The up and down with the arms gives no powerful extension......well that is my opinion

Look forward to you also finding some time to make it up to Vegas for a Robert Round.

Not looking like this week.

Dirt,

My guess is that the problem comes from further back in your swing. When you're under pressure in a match, you probably get the urge to "reach back for a little more." That extra bit probably pulls you out of dynamic balance, possibly even changes your spine angle a bit, forcing your body to make the compensations that end up with you over-rotated. The only cure is to keep trying to force yourself back into your optimum tempo. Whatever you need to do to get that, be it a mnemonic phrase, a waltz tempo, a song. Just get yourself back into your rhythm.

Hmmm. I'll go with hoppel poppel - eggs scrambled into onions, bell peppers, sausage and potatoes, along with a nice garlic bagel and cream cheese.

Wait, what were we talking about?

You're entitled to your opinion. DJ being 26th on tour in driving distance (down a few places this year as he strives for better placement of tee shots and uses more less-than-driver tee shots) at 299+ yards average shows that there's certainly distance available. Switching to this swing has cost me absolutely nothing on my distance, and hitting the ball where I'm aiming more often is a big improvement.

What I wonder is why you would think of the plane of the club shaft, and not the plane of your arms around your neck and shoulders, unless you're swinging with your arms completely extended so they're perfectly in line with the club shaft (tough on your wrists, that position)? That's where you're actually making the action happen, swinging your arms around the point where your neck and shoulders come together. The club just rides along, controlled in space by the firm grip of your hands on the shaft.

By the way, you know that as you tilt that egg on its side, a little force called gravity actually starts to slow your swing down by pulling the club off its plane rather than keeping everything moving in the simple vertical plane? Anyway, the swing indeed works, but if you're not willing to believe it, we won't force you to use it. Thanks for stopping by.

Gary, you may be standing too far from the ball. Is the weight centered over your feet at address with the ball addressed in the center of the club face and your left thumb knuckle directly below your chin or mouth? If your arms are short for your height, you may need to use more knee bend to get set properly without bending over too far.

Also, when you address the ball to swing, do you step in already bent over and then flex your knees, or do you stand straight and lower your shoulders and knees until the club is behind the ball?