Setup Form and Swing Speed

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 12:00 -- Don Trahan

The inspiration for today's video didn't come from a question submitted to the website. Instead, I'm going to discuss a recent lesson I had with a longtime student from Atlanta, Georgia. Because we don't live as close as we used to, he started taking some lessons from another instructor. The new teacher switched him to a rotational swing and soon after, he started to develop chronic back pain.

My student's back pain had become so bad that he was unable to play golf, tennis, or much of anything else that involved a lot of movement. After I got him back to swinging vertically, I worked with him on his setup and swing because his form was really bad and his arm swing was to restricted.

If you had the day off today in observance of Labor Day, take a few minutes and practice your setup and swing after watching the video. If you really want to test it out, head to the driving range or hit the golf course. 

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

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Comments

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Don ,Though your swing is vertical ,you do have a major element of rotation in it:it's the very fast rotation of your hips around your straight left leg .This is what puts speed in your swing ,not the arms moving fast.The arms are fixed to the upper body and just follow the rotation of your hips .
Am I right or wrong in my analysis?
How do you tip off the rotation of your hips?
Pushing off the right instep,pulling with the lower left leg (Knee ),bumping the right hip forward ,etc ..
I didn't see you explaining it in your very interesting videos .
In fact ,you teach the old Scottish method ,which I was taught years ago(More than 40! ) ,and which is considered out of fashion today.My first Golf Instructor ,many years ,was a "Basque "who himself got it from the Scots who came playing in this southern part of FRANCE /Northern part of SPAIN .Nothing new under the sun ,but you do have a lot of courage to revive this"elegant "way of playing golf in the face of the rotational Gurus .

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

There is no fast rotation of Don's hips. There is no straight left leg. Those two elements in and of themselves are the cause of a major number of golf-related pains and injuries (for instance, Tiger Woods). The left leg is always kept flexed. The hips rotate only to allow the free motion of the arms. A rotational FUS often begins with a snap of the left knee straight and a twist of the hips. In the PPGS, the hips shift slightly forward TOWARD THE TARGET, then rotate only as naturally occurs to allow the arms to swing freely in front of the body.

SimplyGolf's picture

Submitted by SimplyGolf on

Hi Chastel.

Interesting comments. Yep, I'm thinking your thoughts will get a response.

40 years ago in Scotland.... hopefully there is something you can offer to document your post. That would be helpful. Anything in print? Did that style of swing finally decline or disappear without any documentation, or does it exist in certain locations?

And just to be clear.....it's a very cool little narrative you've put together.
A bit of golf-swing history from the other side of the world...

I'm sure Don will acknowledge your comments if they are documentable and accurate. Don may even have knowledge of it.

Chastel, the combination of elements known as the PPGS, is quite unique in the way it is assembled and presented. Not sure it was being taught like this 40 + years ago.

Yes, I think Don does rotate around the front leg. It's a bit different, though,
because it's initiated with a small lateral "bump". The arm speed is influenced by more than just hips turning or rotating.

By the way: neither Don's right or left leg is is Ever locked-out the way our rotational friends do it.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr "SIMPLY GOLF ",When I said 40 years ago ,I should have said 65:I'm now 79 ,en route to 80.I was taught golf by famous French teacher Raymond GARAIALDE ,a Basque ,who himself was taught by the only French Champion to have won the BRITSH OPEN (JEAN VAN DE VELDE came very close to winning,with 3 shots leading on the 18th hole ,only to play a crazy Driver off the 18th tee and fouling the recovery shots ).Raymond GARAIALDE's son ,JEAN GARAIALDE ,26 timesFrench Champion ,the only French player to have beaten JACK NICKLAUS at the top of his career .JEAN took over the teaching to me.Both played the so called "Scottish Style " ,very much upright ,no rotation of the body ,speed of clubhead coming from the arms ,not the hips .
They also emphasized the use of the wrists ,which is abhorred by the US teachers ,but which is common amond SAPANISH and ARGENTINIAN golfers (JOSE MARIA OLAZBAL ,SEVE BALLESTEROS ,ANGEL CABRERA ,SERGIO GARCIA and others .)
The famous BOBBY JONES had an upright swing:all serious golfers should have read his extraordinary book:"BOBBY JONES :ON GOLF " .BOBBY JONES was taught by Scot teacher -STEWART MAIDEN -Scottish style
Now ,if you look at the swings of famous US Players of the '40's :HENRY PICARD ,GENE SARAZEN ,ALEX MORRISON ,RALPH GUDAHL ,JIMMY DEMARET ,SAM SNEAD ,JACK GROUT (He taught JACK NICKLAUS in the initial stages ),JIMMY THOMSON ,FRED MORRISON BYRON NELSON ,etc,etc...),they all have vertical, beautiful and elegant swings .
I don't forget great PETER THOMSON and ROGER COTTON .
I do contend DON rotates on his left leg ,that's obvious ,and I don't share Mr FLECK's opinion when i says he does not .He also rotates very fast forward his hips,this is what gives speed to his clubhead .
In other words ,Don's teaching is interesting but he does not himself put in motion what he teaches.
So you have to discover by yourself what to do.
Other PPGS onlookers have said that before me .
If not ,where does he get from the speed of his arms in his throughswing ?
BEN HOGAN said before that you had "to dig the truth out of the dirt "
No teacher today can really teach you how to play good golf :you have to find out by yourself;
My son is scratch golfer ,I play to a 7 handicap at age 79,so I am an "old crocodile "who doesn't believe all the crap I see on INTERNET .
Golf teachers never tell the true story!

bobchipps@frontiernet.net's picture

Submitted by bobchipps@front... on

Surge,
You were discussing the "tucked in right arm" today along with swing speed.
I remember when Nicklaus was in his prime all the teaching gurus complained about his flying elbow as a swing flaw. Not long ago you yourself pointed to Nicklaus as having a vertical swing plane , or close to it. Which brings me to the subject:
When I very first started the PPGS system I could not for the life of me make a vertical swing. In frustration I went in my bedroom and stood by a full length mirror with my right shoulder opposite the mirror. Then I swung the club to the top and found the club was nowhere near vertical. Well jeez Loise, there's the problem. I found that the only way to get the club vertical was to let that right elbow fly. The arms formed a perfect triangle with a line drawn from elbow to elbow being parallel to the ground. Just the way you demonstrated many times, later.
I would recommend that anyone who has trouble getting vertical take a look in the mirror and see what it takes to get vertical. A flying elbow!
The swing feels weird for a while but soon gets natural.
Now when I swing, I keep the left arm over my shoes and this forces the right elbow out and you don't even have to think about it.

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

Before the dimpling of the modern golf ball, the old gutta percha balls required a very upright swing to get the ball air born. Harry Vardon played with his right elbow much higher at the top of the backswing, than advocated in the Surge swing. I'm sure that inventive golfers came up with many variations of an upright swing, over those many decades. I agree with SimplyGolf that some documentation would be very interesting and that Surge's version is probably unique until proven otherwise.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

You see it in the very interesting book of JOE DANTE "FOUR MAGIC MOVES TO WINNING GOLF ,abd in an older book from ALEX MORRISON "BETTER GOLF WITHOUT PRACTISE "
See also BOBBY LOCKE "s book "ON GOLF ".
All these books are classics which every serious golfer shoud have read .
There's also PERCY BOOMER's book :ON LEARNING GOLF :his brother AUBREY BOOMER had a beautiful and elegant vertical swing

Craig63's picture

Submitted by Craig63 on

I like Henrik Stenson's golf swing, he finishes hard square to the target and although a little wide with the arms still inside the lead shoulder, he's definitely gone to school on DJ's golf swing, I reckon anyway.

He and Stricker have some pretty impressive accuracy stats, ffs DJ get that rock a rollin and join the party!

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

You are right :Henrik STENSON ,is a beautiful ,élégant ,and very powerful ball striker :I saw him in action many ,many Times at THE LANCÔME Trophy (I was THE score announcer for his party ,and I saw him from a very short distance ).Then you CAN throw in COLIN MONTGOMERY ,and his distinctive ,patented ,élégant ,vertical swing .For all his bad character on THE golf course ,hé indeed was a great champion ,who didn't have THE career hé should have had ,out of his not mastering his tempérament and nerves !

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr Fleck,
Thank you for contesting my analysis of DON TRAHAN's swing.So If THE Speed of THE clubhead is not generated by THE hips ,and THE corrélative fast rotation of THE hips ,leading THE arms ,then THE accélération and THE Speed come from THE arms themselves ,very much like a Javelin thrower ,a tennis player ,a boxer delivering a punch with his left hand.This means DON's swing is an"arms swing",powered by THE muscles of THE arms ( especially THE straight left arm )and THE pectoral muscles .Nothing wrong with this méthod ,except you MUST train THE "fast twitch fibers "of those muscles to grow and deliver their influx in THE shortest Time possible.DON TRAHAN discards THE "wrist hinge "as source of Power and Speed:as I said in another message ,this was not THE case in THE so called "Scottish Méthod "All THE greats I mentioned took,great care to utilize their wrists .Why disdain a significant asset of your body to gain more Speed ?Purists say SEVE BALLESTEROS - a great wrist user-shot all over THE golf course with an excessive use of his wrists ,BUT hé did Win THE BRITISH OPEN ,and what a great shot Maker hé was!!

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

Hello CHASTEL,

It's hard to argue with a player who has been playing at your level for so many years. I can only speak from my personal experience with this swing. I have collected and read hundreds of golf books and some of them were of the same vintage as you mentioned. After adopting the Surge swing several years ago I soon realized that reading most of them had been a waste of time. I recently had to downsize my home and the golf books were the first thing to get pitched, because with a working Surge swing they seemed redundant. I would question your dismissal of anything promoted on the internet, because I would have given up playing 2 years ago if Surge hadn't given me a very clear blueprint, of how to change to an upright swing.

I think that the key to this body friendly swing is "less rather than more" can produce good shots. Some of these parameters are less turn, less head movement, less knee and hip action, less thought of down in the swing and and less wrist hinge. Anytime that I start worrying about incorporating "more" of the undeniably valid power sources that you have mentioned, my consistency goes out the window.

Thank you for your interesting discussion of the Surge swing. I enjoyed reading it.

Dave Everitt

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr EVERITT ,You are 100% right in all you say .I seem to be criticizing DON TRAHAN 's swing ,but I am not .He is strictly on the right path .(All the others sell crap on INTERNET )Unfortunately ,but maybe I missed the corresponding video, Don does not explain from where he gets power and speed .Without being a great scientist,one of the formulas applicable in the flight of the ball is Torque=Moment of Inertia x Angular acceleration .Torque is what gives gives the acceleration ,thus the speed of the ball as the radius of the arm is constant .You have to generate Torque somewhere :either it's from the rotation of the HIPS/SHOULDERS transmitted to the arms and wrists ,or it's something else.In my opinion ,but I am not an expert ,it comes from the speed of arms :the arms are powered by the TRICEPS/BICEPS/ PECTORALS .So the PPGS is , in my opinion ,an "ARMS SWING ",which is shunned by almost all "modern"teachers today.But they are damned wrong.As you had before ,I have almost all the possible and existing books on golf :those who invented the game ,HARRY VARDON ,GEORGE DUNCAN etc.. were "ARMS SWINGERS ";and their swings were beautiful ,elegant and consistent :HENRY PICARD and ALEX MORRISON ,not to forget RALPH GUDAHL ,had the most beautiful swings I know of .In comparison ,the very great BEN HOGAN had an "ugly"swing :yes ,but it worked repeatedly like a machine gun .
Yes ,you have to "prune down "all unneccesary movements in the golf swing ,and that's the merit of DON TRAHAN,except I don't adhere to the 3/4 swing and the "no wrist break ".I go to parallel and cup my left wrist ,then "bulge"it out before impact .It works for me ,but I don't pretend I am omniscient .Each golfer has his own system developed through time and thousands of balls hit .Humility and hard work is what makes great golf.

JKPassage's picture

Submitted by JKPassage on

I in the past 5 years, I have tried every popular swing methodology out there. I've been had MORAD, TGM, S&T, X Factor, you name it golf instructors. Spent over $6,000 on lessons. Not one of them was able to help me hit the ball solid and straight and longer. At first, I thought Don's swing method was goofy. But I continued to try it out on occasion. But this year, I got serious about PPGS and I am hitting the ball farther than ever. The power I get is generated by GRAVITY, the club lifted up high and vertical in the back swing and then I let it drop into impact, thinking nothing but swinging my arms as fast as possible and swinging up to a nice high T finish. Whatever rotation I get from my body is a consequence of a good swing. A good swing is not a consequence of conscious rotation.

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

JK.

I really appreciated your expressions of your personal journey. Mine has some similarity's. Thankfully I didn't spend as much$$! Raising a family and life kept me from playing golf with any regularity for about 20 years or so. Then I started searching. I did a lot of experimentation and took some lessons and bought books and videos (VHS) then later some dvd's. Would sort of play better but rarely. Then I found the PPGS and Don Trahan. From the moment I watched the 10 free lessons I knew this was it for me. Two things stood out. One, everything made sense and I immediately played better. Everything clicked. The second thing was Don Trahan, I just felt in my bones that he was a genuine, honest, passionate teacher who spent his adult life studying the golf swing and teaching it to others. I consider myself a good judge of character. I have worked in hospitality for over 35 years meeting and serving people from all over the world from every walk of life. Surge is flat out likable. A good man. His Bostonian- South Carolina accent is interesting to listen to even at machine gun pace!
I have personally met him several times along with other communications through the phone and e mail and he is as I intuitively thought, the real deal. For the most part, the type of men and women that are attracted to this site are likewise some of the nicest people I have never shook hands with but have shown me acts of kindness I cannot share at the moment. I have gained more golf know how from Don, his other teachers (and club fitters) and my sincere fellow Surgite friends than by any other means. Great site, great people and if you bought everything Surge actually sells it wouldn't add up to $200.00. Aside from the reasonable costs of attending a couple of his clinics in the past 4 years that is about how much I've spent and i own every paid for video he has ever offered. The value this man gives us is off the chart in my opinion. And I have no idea how many $1000's Surge and his team could sell his entire volume of FREE daily lessons. This library of archived lessons is now like an encyclopedia of golf. Probably any and all golf questions have been answered, most many times. My game has never been better. Why would I go anywhere else?

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard on

Having been in the same place I think you said it very well.

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Dave,

I have enjoyed the back and forth comments the last few days. We have lacked a little spice and it has been both educational and interesting. I wanted to say that you very much summarized my experience and feelings about this body friendly swing. I too keep returning to less is more on the days I get it right. On the days I don't I always have more moving parts and am "trying" to hard. This is why I have been reminding myself each time out lately that what Surge says about maintaining the same muscle tone from set up throughout the swing to be so important for better results. Any effort to swing harder or bigger brings tightness, tension and bad things happen.
Tempo, timing and a sameness of grip pressure and body is king for me.
I only learned this through the PPGS and the man behind these lessons and reminders.

Interesting discussion indeed.

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

Spot on Robert!

It was cooler on the golf course today and even on the driving range every shot was shorter. Instead of just taking one more club to compensate for the weather I found myself stubbornly trying to muscle approach shots into greens and coming up short. I was hitting the ball very solid and straight but losing distance. I didn't realize, until near the end of the round, how much club head speed I was losing because of too much arm tension creeping in. It's kind of an insidious the way too much effort can kill swing speed. It sometimes takes very little to upset this muscle tone balance. A tough shot out of the rough, or over water, or a blow up hole that causes you to try too hard on the next one. Constant vigilance is required, to not let that tension devil take over.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Every athlete who has been at a high level in his discipline has been taught by his coach to avoid tension by all means .The muscle fibers(The fast twitch ones esentially ) must first lengthen then contract :that's what Plyometrics have taught us .When boxing ,to deliver your left hand jab ,you have to relax beforehand.Same for the serve at tennis ,or throwing the Javelin .
So the golf stroke is no different and DON TRAHAN 's PPGS swing has nothing to do with this basic fact . It's also true for the rotational swing .I have written before ,but this is probably impopular with most of the readers of this blog ,there's nothing new in DON TRAHAN's PPGS swing :golf was played this way by HARRY VARDON and GEORGE DUNCAN in the 1900's and all the greats in the 30's /'40 's.(I will not enumerate them again ).Sorry to spoil the soup !
Herr Doktor "KNOW IT ALL "

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

You haven't been around the site very long, Chastel, or you would know that Surge points out often how much more vertical the normal golf swing was than that promoted by rotational instructors today. You also haven't likely seen any of the instructional videos or learned the actual elements that Surge teaches that vary from both modern and traditional golf instruction. Wide knees, limited turn, etc, etc.

The PPGS is far more than just "swing the club vertically." If that were the sum total, your dismissal would be apt. You may have studied a lot of classic swings, but you haven't studied THIS swing, so you are being intellectually dishonest to claim to know it and dismiss it as nothing new.

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

Chastel,

Yes, the PPGS is a primarily arm powered swing. In any number of dailies, as well as in the basic lessons, you will hear and see Don explain the "rock on the string" principal. If you have a rock on the end of a string and you're holding the other end of the string in your hand and you want to swing that rock around in a circle with greater speed, you hold your hand as still as possible and spin the string faster. Applying this analogy to the golf swing, our bodies are "the hand" and our arms and club are the string, with the head of the club being the rock. To make the rock go faster, we hold our bodies (the hand in the analogy) steadier and swing our arms (the string) faster toward the target. Body motion is a consequence, not a cause, and we want to keep it as minimal as possible.

In terms of the wrist cocking, Seve Ballesteros was probably the most creative and crafty golfer to ever walk the green, which saved him repeatedly when his lack of accuracy off the tee got him in trouble. For most of us, it's far more important to improve accuracy than try to gain another 5-10 yards distance at the expense of 30-40 yards greater dispersion at the target end. This is why Surge teaches inactive wrists. It's very much the same principal that has made Steve Stricker the deadliest player on tour from 120 yards in.

In my youth, I had a swing much more based around the Ben Hogan style of swinging around my body, and like Hogan early on in his career, I struggled with some of the most impressive hooks ever seen on a golf course. When my timing was just right, I could hit the ball a ton. Off by a millisecond and my ball would clear the first row of houses lining the fairway and hit the roof of a house on the other side of the street adjoining the course. With the Surge swing, even when I am off line (generally from a failure in my own alignment, though sometimes because my body reverts to cranking the hips to try to generate power) it is 10-20 yards from my intended line, not 60.

It's a question of balancing gain and loss. The gain in club head speed using an actively cocked wrist for your average weekend golfer isn't going to result in more than 10 extra yards, but they're going to increase the dispersion of those shots a LOT more. I'd rather have one more club into the green from the middle of the fairway than return to constantly trying to manufacture a shot out of some insane trouble spot, or having to tee up another ball and play 3 because my first shot was OB again.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr Fleck ,Your comments are quite right :it 's always a question of trade off between accuracy and maximum distance .NICK FALDO was a very accurate ball striker ,but not that long off THE TEE,which enabled him to overcome a 6 shot lead by GREG NORMAN in a mémorable 4th round at AUGUSTA in 1996 ,and Win .
David LEADBETTER moulded for him a beautiful upright swing :Better than watching DON TRAHAN 's verbous VIDEOS ,read and read again his marvelous and very précise instruction book:FALDO ,THE WINNING FORMULA 'it dates back to 1989 .but is Stil one of the best bois on THE classical upright arms swing .

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Yesterdays subject of "letting the putter do the work" and today's thoughts from Surge tied in together well for me.
Especially Surges saying that "from take away to finish I don't want to feel one twitch of any of the muscles in my arms (too somewhat in the legs and body)....
don't feel any change". This may actually be the real explanation of what many of us have referred to as a "smooth" stroke. And as Surge said there still needs to be and certainly should be zip and speed even if we are not feeling any changes in muscle tone.
Focusing on this same concept with my new heavier (900+grams) putter I am really experiencing a true pendulum stroke for the first time. Only had it for 4 days but couldn't wait any longer to test it out (in the midst of my work week) so after work at 7pm as the sun was setting I made it to the Los Prados Putting green and oh my goodness I like my new putter and the pendulum stroke. Even in the darkening conditions I was able to roll it well and made both short and several long putts. This heavy, center balanced putter just wants to swing pure and does not twist at impact. Just solid and stable. It has big parallel alignment lies that really assist in lining it up and staying square. I can truly just rock my shoulders and let gravity and the club do the work.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Robert,
Glad the new putter seems to be 'the bees knees' after your first trial outing with it. My old [no more manufactured],Ping Zero 3 Putter[with the number three inside the zero on the logo], worked very well on our chilly and windy outing yesterdsay. It was a day which confirmed my "Sloow Dooon" mantra~! My wife, caddy, fan, critic and now coach, gave me advice on a few holes, after, as she said, "rushing at the last second before impact"! I settled down and began again, as she said, "striking the ball effortlessly" and they went exactly where they were aimed, dead straight and much longer : - ) New swing rythm thought inspired by Surge's comment on, thumb to right ear on the BUS, then thumb to left ear on the FUS and recoil,ie, "UP....AND....UP" It banished all other thoughts ricocheting around inside my skull. Another comment the 'new coach' made, was the quality of recovery shots made and executed after 'rushing shots' left me off the short stuff!
All in all a good outing. Next scheduled before the end of the week, weather willing ; - ) Keep on putting them in the hole in Vegas with that new magic wand. Rocking the shoulders [like we both do] is the way to go IMHO : - )
DH

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Robert,

Looking real hard at this L2 putter. I'm very tempted to spring for one, so please keep me posted on your trials with it. How do you feel about the expanded sweet spot claim to a 5-dime width. If you have time give it the hanging tap on the face test and check out for any twisting at those 5-dime extremes. Anything else such as length purchased or odds and ends please relate through the blog. I need something to play with over the coming winter. It has always been my opinion that the putter is the most important club in the bag. Thanks

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Terry,
You must be psychic old friend. Just finished reading how to correctly do the hanging face check on putters in Dave Pelz's book, 'Putt Like the Pros'~! I had done it previously and it appears I had been doing it wrong! He advocates hanging the putter with the shaft at an angle of 70degrees from horizonal, which is the angle most players are when addressing the ball with their putters! I had only held mine vertically like a pendulum at 6 o'clock! On this very afternoon around 4pm local time I repeated the check using Pelz's method and found the 'point of percussion' [not the sweet spot],as he calls it was a long way from where I had previously identified it to be!!! It will be interesting on our next visit to the course, hopefully Friday [our time around 16 hrs ahead of US ET], very interesting indeed. I too am looking forward to more updates on Robert's trials with his new L2 putter. Dave Pelz has some fascinating comments on putters themselves, including shaft lengths etc.
Regards DH

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Terry,
After writing my comment on the L2Putter I had a look on the net! If you haven't seen this, well worth a look.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN_anEpHCWk

I was sold as soon as I saw this : - )
DH

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

DH,
Here's part two for those interested. This is not the version of the L2 I bought and am using. again, mine is the L2 traditional.

Here's the part two of the above one you posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWL-_DZrvrU

I will again post the site of the L2 Traditional and the viseo on that one is there

http://www.l2traditionalputter.com/

Remember all, if you simply google L2 you may get info on either.
It seems John came up with the Longer shafted side saddle version first and then added the Traditional later. I'm sure the side saddle would be an awesome option too. The heads look similar if not identical. It is mainly the shaft length and the styles that are different. A lot of the methodology and qualities of each still apply such as the large moi, stability, heavier weight and the fact that you can putt while looking at the line and hole if you so choose. I am experimenting with it and really am impressed so far. I have given additional lengthy highlights on the 5/7 secrets daily.

ret7191's picture

Submitted by ret7191 on

Robert,
Are you testing this putter out using the side-saddle approach?? I looked at the video link that DH posted and it was strictly side-saddle. I might be interested in this putter but not if I have to switch to side-saddle.
Thanks

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

ret7191,
I checked google and typed in: How much is an L2 Putter? It gave lots of references and one was a much longer advert for it. It was the first time I had seen it being used with a normal side on putting stroke. This may help you.
Today on the practice ground at the course with my old putter I putted all the balls I had pitched and chipped to the green towards my golf trolley off the green. I used a modified chipping stance, half-way between the side on stance I normally use for putting and the side-saddle method. I was stunned at the results, every ball was on line and I could have dropped Surge's hat on ALL the balls. Real food for thought for me. Good luck with your search for the L2 promotional video. DH

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Good putting has nothing to do with the putter "per se ". An ordinary blade putter will do the work fine .BEN CRENSHAW ,and BOBBY LOCKE had ordinary blade putters .Try the BOBBY LOCKE stroke :I guarantee you'll be rolling in most of your puts .But nobody today teaches this technique .
BOBBY LOCKE learned the stroke from WALTER HAGEN himself :WALTER HAGEN was a extraordinary good putter .
I forgot: if you want to become a fine putter ,throw away all the mallett putters you own :you can have no feel with a mallet putter !You have to know exactly at which spot on the blade you have contacted the ball

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

If you watch the pros and amateurs alike you'll see we have so many choices. So many things in our tiny short lives are controlled. Some golfers are so talented and have such a keen sense for rolling the rock that they could putt using a household hammer. For most of us including many skilled ball strikers pro or not we look for better way of playing and putting. For some (and I admit I'm among those) there is a never ending search and trial to find what works best. Currently, I have found something that really is helping me. What it may do for anyone else including any of my fellow bloggers is another question. I am simply enthusiastic and when I come across something that I truly feel is helping me I am moved to share my good results.
Choosing another putter or driver or using the same ones for 30/40 years is up to each person and their pocket books. Freedom to choose or not to. I love the concept.

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Chastel,

I disagree with your assessment of mallet putters. I think for a straight back and straight through pendulum stroke, a center shafted, face balanced, mallet putter is the best choice. Millions have been won with mallet putters. To throw them all out with one statement does them a grave injustice as well as those who use and win with them.

In reading your comments the past few days, you are coming across as a self appointed know it all in all things golf. A little toning down would go a long way towards acceptance. Maybe just an occassional, In My Opinion.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

None of THE best putters in THE past and today (Sole exception ,THE great putter DAVE STOCKTON ), wields a mallet putter .It 's not a coïncidence :to put well,you MUST know exactly which part -to THE tenth of a millimèter- of THE putter head has striked THE ball:how do you manage that with a mallet head ?
Look at pictures of BEN CRENSHAW ,BOBBY LOCKE ,WALTER HAGEN ,TIGER WOODS ,BOBBY JONES ,ETC,ETC and you Will see that they all have blade putters .

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

I check the impact point on the blade putter head by spraying before putting Dr SCHOLL's foot spray :that's how I found the tenth of a mm necessity .

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr Medley ,I 'm sorry (and I apologize )If I have given you THE (wrong )impression to be a "Mr know it all "!there's nô,Universal truth in playing golf ,each one Plays it his way .But there are on THE Web to many self proclamiez instructors who want to sell you their stuff and DVD's when it's mostly crap.
Rotational or vertical swing methods are but one example of this misleading honest week end golfers .DON TRAHAN haSn't invented anything new ,this is how THE game was generally played at THE turn of THE century (1900 )and in THE '30's and early '40's .
I play golf since more than 65 years ,and have at home all THE books written on THE subject by THE " greats "of THE past.
I am sorry to say that there's not much I don't know about THE golf swing ,including THE mathematical équations explaining with figures where Speed ,direction and Power come from .My opinion is that you have to find out by yourself ,by trial and error ,what suite you THE best .
Don't get tied up by THE PPGS or THE rotary swing techniques .Better go to a tournament and see what THE Pro's do Intel Life !

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Chastel,

Thank you. I thought after giving MY OPINION on your thoughts, that perhaps I was a little too over board. Once again though you have proven my comments to be closer to fact than opinion. I am glad you have such a very high opinion of your golf knowledge, However, you still fail to see how you come across to everyone else as just another Know It All type of personality. I'll bet you're the same way on every other topic, you just have to know it all and always be right. Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong, in either case, a little bit of humility would be a great asset to your personality. I still say you are turning me and others off with the too strong of a know it all type. You remind me of the guy who once though he was wrong, but discovered he was wrong about being wrong.

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Submitted by Robert Meade on

Terry,

I did the find the sweet spot test using the swing and bounce off till centered idea and actual test on the green. I have to agree with John Ambrose that this is an extremely stable putter and shows minimal dispersion when hit away from center toward either toe or heel. Having said that, hitting directly below the center of the centered shaft seems to yield the most consistency.

Two points that are vary apparent are that having the arms hanging so that the elbows are relaxed and the hands are placed comfortably is important. As I mentioned earlier, I now realize that I was more suited for the 33 inch version where as I got the 35 inch. When I hang my arms down and have the easiest and most consistent pendulum is at the 33 inch point on the grip. It is not a problem and I doubt I'll ever cut off 2 inches. I am now visibly able to note where that ideal grip placement is and it will soon become automatic with repetition.I will simply feel the 2 inches above as counter weight (not a bad thing). To be sure, John also offers it in 33 and 34 inch versions.

The second point of importance to note is that it is truly a more vertical angle than most putters. The lie angle is 76 degrees where as the average lie angle for most putters is 71-72. This may not seem like much but it does encourage a more upright/directly over the ball set up and swing. Personally I prefer a more upright set up even with a more conventional/lighter putter.

I want to add a third and additional point. With this putter and putting style, there is much less arc inside to arc inside in the back and forward movement. It is much more straight back and straight through (although there is still some natural arcing).

If someone prefers a Brandt Snedeker type of short popping stroke this is NOT the right putter for them. This requires a longer flowing stroke where truly the distance is controlled by the length of stroke and best done with zero pop or hit. If all this fits you then it may be the right putter for your game.

Yes one more point. I am not sure if calling this a mallet putter is correct terminology.

A large, heavy headed 'futuristic' design might be a more appropriate designation.

I found this article to be interesting and may help golfers know which category of putter type they are. In the end, we need to try each type out to see what works best. Hence a trip to a super store like Golf Galaxy and hands on trials help. Unfortunately the L2 is not available in these golf stores to my knowledge.

http://www.best-putter.com/choosing-a-putter.html

To me, this is what a mallet looks like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330748529457

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Robert,

Hopefully mine is being shipped out today. I ordered it yesterday. I have been using the Nike Method center shafted 35"mallet for a couple years now. I have the 17" Super Stroke Jumbo on it, so I am already used to the long grip style coming on the L2. It will be a little smaller diameter though, so I'll have to get used to that. Not sure of the effect of putting a 17" Jumbo on it, but hopefully I'll adjust well to the smaller dia grip.

I have the Sooolong shafted with the Accuflex and cut to 45 for starters, but haven't had a chance to hit balls yet. Using the Chamois Jumbo grips now again on all clubs. Need to get a few more of those too. You have cost me a bit of money lately, so I think I'm done for this year, with enough toys to play around with through the coming winter. Don't remember if I mentioned it in the blog before but I also recently/this year purchased The Putting Stick. I'm curious how that will work out with the L2 in practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rru-qrv8-B4

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Congratulations Terry!

It's like Santa Claus but you buy the toys. Whoops! I would say I'm sorry for "costing" you soooo much money but i think you'll be sending me some good reports in the coming weeks:)

I think you'll love the L2 traditional Terry. Keep in mind that John is a down to earth Ohio guy and he is very easy to talk to. He is the expert and you should feel free to call him and e mail him. He has been great at getting back to me.

Quick thoughts on todays practice session. I just spent close to an hour at Los Prados on their putting green. Love it! One of the drills that John gives on his web site is not looking at the putter or ball after setting up and and are sure of your alignment. I did this today on long lags. made several and had nearly perfect distance on lots of others. That drill prove to me that the advertised MOI on this thing is true. I'm sure I missed the center with my "no looks" and still rolled great and distance was spot on. To me it is the distance that requires the most practice and adjustment. A bigger swing is required to hit the ball as far as you might with a smaller headed, lighter putter. Having said that, I think you will not be able to apply the Putting Stick to this putter as far as back stroke length goes. You may find with a pure pendulum your back swing will be much bigger than the pro on the you tube video you posted. It will be useful for aim and stroke straightness for sure. Let me know as I may get that one too.

Now go play!!!!!

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

A drill which is worthwile to try is to put a big red dot on the putter shaft ,just under the grip ,which you see when at address .When putting ,after aiming and taking your stance ,make your stroke without taking your eyes off THE dot .You'll be surprised with the result .
The "Doctor "

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr MEDLEY ,Thank you for your advice ,I'll sure follow it .Maybe my tone is to much "doctoral " and for that i apologize again .I'm just trying to have others benefit from my very long experience:I see too many false statements on the game of golf and the way to swing that I can't help to point ou what's wrong in those statements .The worst misleaders are all those so called "Golf Gurus"who give video lessons on the web .The best way to improve is to take golf lessons with an ex Champion ,who has played on the Tour ,even if it seems expensive ,not a mere Golf teacher who knows no better than you .
I do know that to play good golf you have to be humble and accept the mistakes you make .
Nothing to be caustic about on this blog!

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

Chastel,

Perhaps doctoral is a better word, than know it all. I have read enough of your comments to believe you are sincere in your attempts at conveying or passing along your years of knowledge. So I will humbly apologize for any smudge on your sincerity. I still disagree with much of what you have to say, but I will agree to disagree in a more disagreeable manner. Best wishes to you and yours.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

Dear Mr Medley,Thank you for your " kinder"comment .As says the Latin proverb :"IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS ".Probably midway between our appréciation of swing and equipment techniques lies the truth .
This blog is ,I assume .meant to promote cross fertilization.it is not for attacks "Ad hominem "You Will note that I have not said anything to be disagreable to you .So the réciproque should be applicable ..
I know that experience is not transmissible ,and that juniors don't like to take lessons from their elders :in the INDIAN and AFRICAN tribes there was respect for the wisdom and experience of THE old wise people .Modern Society does not alllow for that.Many ,many errors would be avoided If the younger people would take in account THE experience of THE eiders .But,enough:I am becoming "Doctoral "again.

Hal's picture

Submitted by Hal on

Mr Chastel, not all golf champions know how to to teach or pass on what they know to other golfers. My God you must be a narrow minded, one sighted individual not to know that.
Hal

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

The most important two things about a putter are that it fits your stroke to make a perfect roll each time and that you have confidence in the putter and your stroke.

The most important two reasons for missed putts are bad rolls and bad reads.

Just curious. Why is THE, among other words and letters, in all caps in all of your comments? If you could get that and some punctuation mistakes squared away it would be a lot more readable.

CHASTEL's picture

Submitted by CHASTEL on

My computer does it it's own way ,I don't so much control what it wants to do.
I took to computers at a advanced age ,so I am not that very much proficient at this modern technique
As for putters ,you are right :BOBBY LOCKE putted marvelously well with a very ancient Hickory shafted putter 36 inches long.
He could have putted with a broom handle to the same effect .
To roll the ball well (Sorry ,I am "doctoral' again !)you have to "caress" the ball upwards and to do so position it in front of your left big toe (for a right hander) .
You can even put some "draw "spin by having an inside -down the line stroke ,right foot back by 2/3 inches.
Reading greens comes from practise :if you have been an engineer in the very old times ,you would have learned to read volumes , surfaces ,and slopes on a sheet of drawing paper .Unfortunately this" art " is no longer taught to the young guys today .That's what they call "modernity"

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Submitted by shortgamewizard on

Can't argue with the observation that the golf swing has not evolved. The big evolution has been the steel shaft which has a lot less torque than the hickory shafts of yore.

Don has brought swing instruction to the modern world using his own unique verbiage.

As to going to the tournaments to gain knowledge it is possible and improbable. Watching those who play at the highest level is most illuminating yet does not reveal the " secrets' that golf instructors know.

My swing came upon these principles independently and created a swing that delivered superb results. Nothing that human physiology would not accept.

The bottom line is who aims correctly. My observation is 2% or less. Including the best in the world. This is where the difference in swing instruction lies. Surge is the only one I know who understands this.

BTW if you are interested in friendly observations come to Arizona and I will work with you.

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