The Plane Is The Same

Checking in at the end of the day on PGATour.com I see that the longest drive today was by S. Smith at 374 yards. Hey, Steve, I didn't know you were playing? ;-)

I already fixed the slice, dude. I fixed it by doing what Don does in this video - NOT swinging the club directly down from a vertical, 12 o'clock position. From that position you can only slice because you can only come over the top.

Let me clarify: this video is great. This video would have been massively helpful to me if I hadn't already figured out myself that when Don says "keep it vertical" he means "keep it at around 11 o'clock, not vertical".

My confusion is not with the swing because I am hitting the ball really well.
My confusion is with Surge telling people to "keep it vertical" when he does not keep it vertical himself. He keeps it around 11 o'clock as you can clearly see in this video.

"Vertical" is a word with a very specific meaning. It means perpendicular to the ground. 11 o'clock is not vertical. 12 o'clock is vertical. Words are all we have to go on here, people. Is it so crazy to ask that our teacher use them correctly? Is it necessary for him to change the definition of words and wait for us to catch up: "Oh, vertical doesn't mean vertical... it means almost vertical!" Seriously, get over your hero-worship, the guy can be a great teacher and still be mistaken.

I know he is in love with the idea of the lightness of the vertical club as opposed to the laid off club. It doesn't change the fact that no one can swing directly down from the vertical position without cutting across the ball in an out-to-in swing path. Starting out vertical can indeed correct the fault of getting too laid off or into the SBG. But if you STAY vertical, you're dead.

Now someone (Robert Meade maybe?) tell me again why "Keep it vertical" is good advice. Please. Don't read what I wrote, don't think for yourself, just tell me that Don is the god of golf and sing me another hymn.

As for me, I'll just keep taking it right back to 11 o'clock and swinging back and through on a single plane, exactly like Don does when he windmills his swing so freely and naturally at 4:24 of this video.

And then we can all chant together: there is nothing wrong with the teaching... there is only one plane... there is only one plane.... it's different coming down than it was going back... but there is only one plane...

Thanks for the info, I've always hovered my clubs, I like to bring it back without touching the ground on the BUS. One of the guys I played with yesterday suggested that I tee it lower, so I did, with some success. I'm wondering now if maybe when I swing with the driver I might be lunging alittle to make sure I get through the impact area. I've always had a little habit of stopping my hands if I don't concentrate on the follow thru. I generally don't have a problem on the range, but like alot of other players my game doesn't always follow me from the range to the course. Thanks again for your help.

Terry, agree with your assesment. That right elbow video is one of my favorites. I've found that along with the master set up and having the right elbow pre set for success makes getting vertical much easier. 

As a student and sincere fan of The Surge's teachings, I am trying to become better at the three quarter limited turn swing.   I watch the daily videos as often as I can and while I do not get an opportunity to play much, I do make it out to the range once or twice a week.   My question is this:  How do I maximize my time on the range for in terms of practicing the fundamentals of the Surge's Swing?  What drills are the most effective at "feeling the swing" and then "swinging the feel"?   I have been making great strides with this swing when I do practice, but I am wondering if I should be doing a core set of drills to ingrain the fundamentals of this swing.  Anyone out there with any "absolute musts" for a recommended set of drills to do on the range?

Coach:
 
   I tried your "feeling - groovy" tempo melody Wednesday.  Made a strange discovery.  In typical "different Amos" fashion - my BUS seems to the "Feeling - gr" portion -- but by the time I finish the  "oovy" part -- I am in full recoil position -- and frequently "Feeling very Groovy" indeed.

   But between shots -- I still like "Roling with the Flow" (Charlie Rich) -- great for keeping one emotions in check and on a "even keel"

     Amos       

Ramon,
As far as foot flair at 45* or  20-30* or somewhere in between, Surge has said one should do what works best for each individual. He himself has tremendous external rotation flexibility and has demonstrated that he can comfotably play with even more than 45* although he stays closer to the 30* formula. This flair in our set up does make for less stress, especially as we get older and have less flexibility in our hips and lower back. As for grip pressure, Surge recomends a firm like a businessmans handshake- 3 out of 5 on a grip scale. therefor the pencil or pen idea would likely be to lax for Surge. Relaxed neck and shoulders? Sounds fine but again, though too much tension is not good Surge has  said the only time he relaxes is in his "easy chair" in the evenings at home. We need to be 'buff' or 'athletically ready' when setting up and swinging a golf club. We should not be too 'loosy goosey' because we control the club and not the other way around. h
Having said that I recently figured out that my grip has probably been closer to 4/5- a bit too much. It is true that probably most amatures put a death grip on thier grip and that will not allow a flowing swing. There has been lots of articles on these subjects on this blog (in the archives) and much more clarity IF you own and review the training videos and manual.

Armand

I am sure in the little circles you run around in, you are known as a sharp wit.  On my end, I find your choice of words rather condescending and think they display a smart ass attitude.  Swing any way you want.  Study any swing you want.  It sounds like you don't need a coach, as you are already hitting the ball so well, and fixing your own problems.

No one on this blog has ever said Surge is a God. 

This might come as a big surprise for your little mind, but none of us are mindless clones of Surge.  We all have to adapt the swing to make it work with our busted up bodies.  The reason we follow Surge is that we can play a lot of golf without pain.  That is impossible for most of us with a rotational swing.  We don't do chants here.  We all think for ourselves, about golf and everything else in life.

Let me show you how that last part works.  I am thinking for myself here.  If you want to come on here and make posts that ask questions, tell us how your game went, point out a different view on any subject, or talk about something else going on in your life, then you will find yourself welcome in the Surge Nation.  It you are not capable of being civil, then you won't.

I tried to explain that in short words that even someone as obviously self important as yourself could understand.

Hope the message soaks in,
Dick

Good video today. It identified a problem I wasn't really aware of. I went to do the "skipping stone drill" and found that I couldn't do it correctly. Apparently, an injury I had to my right shoulder and right elbow about 6 months ago has not healed properly, and I can't get the correct motion. When I start my right arm forward, the shoulder sort of catches and the elbow then goes the wrong way. It is not something that I have noticed in the golf swing, but it might explain some of why I can't quite get on the proper plane in the down swing. Guess I need to go get my rotator cuff checked.

Kevin

I understand the question, but I think in part that no matter how you take the club to the top, it's going to have a tendency to want to lay off as you drop into the slot, so if you're already slightly laid off (say 11:15), it's going to want to get outside the proper parameters rather than staying within them. Also, though, some may be a question of where 12:00 is. I think some people are imagining that 12 is out over the head, rather than straight up from the base of the neck. That's taking swinging in front of your body to an extreme not intended in the swing.

In the real world, you get the club as vertical as you can to maintain control. That's what I do, that's clearly what you do. I'm probably more around 11:30 (or worse with some clubs).

Nothing needing an apology for. Most of the time I can't remember who said what.

If talking about positive stuff makes negative stuff happen, maybe mentioning negative stuff would make positive stuff happen? ;-)

Yep. Me too, everything you said. 11 o'clock - good, 12 o'clock - very bad.

Once again, not sure why 11 o'clock is "within the parameters of vertical" in Don's world when it isn't within the parameters of vertical in say, a dictionary, or a geometry textbook.

Next let's talk about the "parameters of parallel"; as in "lines that almost never converge". Hooray! Goodbye English language! I have six centers of gravity in the ham sandwich I just ate!

:-x

All of those videos were posted under PeakPerformanceGolfSwing, or whatever the old YouTube user name was. I think with the elimination of that site and such, the account is probably gone as well. I'm sure the Swing Surgeon Tech Crew will work to get them back online as soon as they can.

I think this is an interesting topic for discussion. What's important to note is what happens to the muscles in your forearms when you tighten your grip with your fingers. When you grip with the thumb and forefinger, the muscle on top of the forearm also tightens. When you grip with the last three fingers (pinky, ring, middle) the muscles on the outside of the forearm tighten. The latter set of muscles is your lifter muscles which will give you power in a swing. The former set are more fine motor control. Activating them both at the same time, though, can cause competition between the muscle groups. So, you're probably right that using thumb and forefinger helps with your short game, but you may find you're better off with the last three fingers for the longer game.

I have been using the Surge Swing for about a year now. I have had great days & a fair amount of bad days with this swing. I recently picked up two things to focus on that have given me much better ball striking results. Maintain the center of your swing & make sure that you lift the club
up with the shoulders after turning into the mitt. I have really been focusing on this the past couple of weeks & the ball striking with all of the clubs is really improving, including the driver which before hand I was missing to the right most of the time.

Amos, very nice tune to keep yourself in check between shots

Both up and down swings paths the same, hence I think how important it is to get the bump right. Without the bump you have a robotic unatural swing which will probably be a out to in swing path like mine so will leak right or at worse severely slice.

Getting the club in the mitt, then to the toeline is pretty easy as this part of the swing is more under control with more thought, but once at the top then going in to the downswing back to the toeline I have found is very difficult. Probably because from this point the swing is gaining speed thus more difficult to keep under control and get in the correct position for square impact.

SURGE, what can you recommend for practicing getting in to the correct postion pre impact at the toeline?   

I like to exercise the last three fingers of my left hand to keep them strong by swinging my club held only by them. I do it with a weighted club and with my SwingRite. You might try that, though if you're getting good results the way you're playing, I hate to advise you to screw with it.

12 oclock is only bad if you are doing a golf swing badly with the arms and without the bump, any golf swing is bad without these elements. I should know as this is how I was swinging a club, I am still a bit like it now as I am still getting together timing etc.
I get your point though why go past 11 oclock when you think this is the slot so you may as well stop in this slot.
These are my own thoughts, if I went up to 11 oclock or lower would I be able to generate the same club head speed?, would I find it more difficult to square the club at impact and cast the club forward more? if the club is as vertical as you can get it then it is a light club but heavy if you let it drop at the top to get in the correct position so the club is in the same position like in the takeaway this also is surely generating speed; palms perpendicular over the toeline- this goes for any golf swing.
 
    

Dick-

It's not up to you to decide how these forums are used. Nor, as far as I am aware, are you an elected representative of "Surge Nation". You are certainly no expert on civility.

Regarding the question at hand, I personally get sick of seeing the rules of English usage treated as a matter of personal preference. Words actually do have definite meanings and therefore should be chosen carefully by a teacher who wishes to be understood.

This would probably avoid confusing situations such as this one: multiple blog posters claiming that Surge's swing is a two plane swing on a page entitled, "The Plane is the Same".

I believe this confusion stems from Don himself, and I wish he would address it. Ahem...

ATTENTION SURGE OR MODERATOR WHO CAN PASS THIS ALONG TO SURGE:

The problem lies at 1:20 of the above video:

"Per se: I feel like I swing exactly on the same inclined or tilted plane." - Surge

If it is a single plane, and if that plane is inclined or tilted, that plane is not vertical.

Therefore I repeat my questions to Don:

1. Why the motto "Keep it vertical" when you don't actually want us to keep it vertical, Don? I know "Keep it more vertical" or "Keep it close to vertical" don't really ring, but why have I been following your motto for months of crappy shots only to move back of vertical, find success, and then a couple weeks later hear you also say that the plane is "inclined or tilted"?

2. Why in the world are you allowing dedicated students of your swing like Steve Smith and Robert F, above, to continue to labor under the misconception that they should be trying to put the club in a vertical position, when you yourself are not?

Open request, Will some of you please try to get a few of the archived videos of 2010 to play for you. Any random Month and Day will be fine. Just see if any thing from 2010 will still play for any of you. I have tried about 6 different months with random days in each and none will play. They all display the Video Removed message when the play arrow is clicked. I have already sent a message to support through the site link.

Lou,

Have you videoed your swing with the irons? Also, have your irons been fitted for you to be sure they're not too long? Check that with the irons your nose is pointed at the ball, and not turned behind the ball. Finally be sure that you are properly getting your weight transferred to the forward foot as you start the FUS. Not getting the weight shifted--or worse yet getting a reverse weight shift if your right leg tends to straighten when you take the club up the tree--can cause fat shots.

Well, I thought I had the camera on for my best driver shot of the day (flew straight over the 240 yard flag I was aiming at), but when I got home to load them up, it was a 10 second start-and-stop. Not sure why and really annoying.

Lunging can definitely cause the same problem, yes. Maybe you just need to focus on keeping your head steady at the transition with the driver.

Kevin....lol

this kind of thing is right in the wheelhouse
of simply golfing.

I think Baggar Vance would be good with it too:
Whatever helps you find your swing.

SImply Golf

Yo, T, might be my end...but that link is now semi-dead. You get a "removed by user" message. Got that and a black screen the 1st 3 times, the original opening the next but when you hit play...it reverts to the message again...I liked that one a lot.

Amos,

I've probably heard "Rollin' with the Flow" on numerous occasions, but never really paid attention to it. You are right, it is "great for keeping one emotions in check and on a 'even keel'." I still haven't found a tune that matches my tempo or been able to match my tempo to a tune. I seem to need my mind completely blank as I swing, and that is extremely difficult for me to do.

Kevin

This has just made me get off my butt and check my set up with my feet, I don't think I flare enough, I would say I flare my feet just off parallel.
I just tried flaring my feet a lot more and got to say it felt pretty good! Because of the left flared foot resistence it seems to make your turn more limited which will in turn keep you closer to the toeline and out of the SBG, also I felt it helped transfer the weight to the right side on the backswing , just slightly sinking on to the right side.
Is this another light bulb moment! I hope so, I will implement this more and see how I go next time on the range.
Regards Keith    

Steve,
Hmmm...I never paid that much attention when my husband was fooling around skipping rocks.  I'm going to have ask for a rock skipping lesson.  But I ain't tellin him why..yet....

I think you will find that you are cocking your wrists without realizing it.  I was having the same problem when my son noticed what I was doing. Good Luck

Balls, do indeed make a difference. This video may help you decide which balls are best for you.

http://www.swingsurgeon.com/Ho...

Amos,
Is'nt that a good feeling when you figure out the correction and then get great results?! Good back nine pal. I figured a few things out yesterday on the range. I'mm getting back to Surge basics and it's paying off. It's usually the simple things that make a huge differance.

You are probably correct. That would seem to me a logical conclusion. I wish I would have downloaded a few more of them.

Good evening Surge Nation,
Just got home from the range and had a good 1 and 1/2 hours of hitting balls and putting with my golf buddy- my wife Cindy. She along with my droid x phone for video taping really helped me improve.I was especially motivated after Surges reminder and our following discusion about video taping our swings. I hadn't done that since before my hand surgury. She filmed 2 or three swings, we quickly reviewed them and I was getting too far back into the SBG and certainly not vertical enough. She made the observation that I was not getting into the mit and up but rather was turning too far in the take away and already in line with my heals with my hands and clubhead halfway back. She then stood where my clubhead should be just above mit level. She held her hands in position to catch my clubhead as I slowly practiced it several times until it was natural. Then she'd back away and I would take a full 3/4 backswing and then hit the ball. "Better but let's do it again" she said. We went through this several times. Wow it really paid off. Cindy then video taped me again and apon reviewing it I was really getting in a better take away position and my FUS then became much more natural and looked better too.Oh and the results looked good. pretty straight and long. I mentioned it yesterday but now it has been reinforced that if you are blessed to have a wife,friend, son, daughter or golf buddy, someone whom you can take with you to the range, it is of great assistance. My wife has been learning this swing right along with me and she is in a good position to coach me too. As I've taught her how to golf totally based on Surges teachings she has no bad habits to over come and only knows the Swing Surgeon way.

I went to the doctor this morning and found that I have (had) a calcium deposit in my right elbow. He broke that up with ultrasound. It feels really good now - no snags in there any more. As for the shoulder, I have a partial tear of the rotator cuff that only affects my movement in one direction - when I pull my right arm across my body. If I do the swing correctly, keeping my arms in front of my body, it is not an issue. Corrective action can wait until the end of golf season. Now that I can do the "skipping the stone" drill, I found that the bump comes completely naturally. I wasn't even trying about an hour ago (before the rain got here), and by "skipping the stone", the bump and FUS were almost perfect. I should have made a video of it.

Kevin

Surge, this subject has always held alot of fascination for me. Particularly the part about the small loop at the top during the bump and transition down and into that inside slot. I would guess that Most mid-high handicapers do not have any problem keeping the club from dropping from vertical to laid off. Rather they have the opposite problem of getting to far back(into the SBG) and the comming up and over from outside in not even 'sniffing' the inside slot that is the holy grail of golf and the soft draw that thousands pay $thousands for and never 'get'. I know the solutions have been addressed before but for me(an oldie) and perhaps the many newbies it would be great to hear again. I do know it has everything to do with starting ones swing with the lateral bump and not with the upper body and that dominating right shoulder and arm many of us have, it also is accomodated by learning and using the master set up position and working at getting to that 12 oclock posotion at the top which sets us up for being able to 'drop inside'.
I also know one thing for sure, Analizing Suge and DJ's swings(in slow mo or frame by frame) reveals that little loop at the top into the 'slot' and I marvel at it. Still working on it and am now more determined to 'get' it after my new clubs arrive a couple weeks after my June 1 fitting.
I am planning on getting a personal lesson from Derek or another certified/approved instuctor soon after. Meanwhile I'm headed back to all the training videos and articles a-z. Going to practice the right things.

In the vernacular of Surge, The stone doesn't know what sex you are. Half of the effort, is in selecting the right stones.