Arms Swing Club Vertical On Maximum Incline Plane

Sat, 01/05/2013 - 12:00 -- Don Trahan

There has been some confusion regarding the proper vertical position of the club at the top of the backswing. I recently published a daily titled, Picture Worth A Million Words. The picture on that page shows the club vertical at 12 o'clock. 

Jim Salvarakis referenced that video along with Sacred Burial Ground Defined. The one thing that I tried to explain with both videos is that we're swinging on the maximum incline plane for our posture. Because we don't hit the ball standing straight up, you have to take into account the angle your body creates when bent over the ball.

In your recent videos "Picture Worth A [Million] Words" and "Sacred Burial Ground Defined" your description of what is the proper PPGS vertical, up the tree motion is substantially different. In "Burial Ground" you say go "vertical on the maximum incline plane" but in "Picture/Thousand Words" you show the club position as absolute vertical to the ground. Can you please further clarify? I believe your description in "Burial Ground" is more natural. thank you.

Jim Salvarakis.

Okay, let's try to define this once and for all. At the top of the swing, the club is dead vertical. Vertical is in harmony with gravity. But let's look at this in more detail. I always believe that the plane we swing on is an angle from the ball through the neck and resting on the shoulders. My shoulders are connected in the ball and socket joints so the arms have rotation. When we put both palms together they are diametrically opposed, which means they work together. After we take the club back into the catcher's mitt toe up, it must next go straight up.

Because I'm bent over the ball, I'm swinging my arms up with a little bit of rotation. However, we turn only to where the upper arm (from elbow to shoulder) is over the toe line. When I lift, I'm going up on a diagonal plane but I'm only rotating my arms enough to make sure they go to vertical. I'm not going to let them keep rotating because that's going to cause me to go on a different plane then what I want. It's all about getting on the maximum vertical incline plane. In the PPGS, we're always swinging on the maximum incline plane for our posture. Posture is determined by our athletically ready position and the different lengths of our body parts. People's planes will differ because these elements are usually unique to each golfer.

My right arm and hand are very active in making sure I keep the club vertical. Good lift gives you better freefall which maximizes clubhead speed. You can swing a light club with more speed and more control than a heavy club. When you're in control of your club, it makes for a much easier game. 

I really hope today's video can clear up any confusion that may have arose from the two videos Jim mentioned. If not, please leave a comment or question below.

Keep it vertical!

The Surge

If you can't view the YouTube video above try CLICKING HERE. You must allow popups from this site for the link to work.

Comments

baiktjcarb@aol.com's picture

Submitted by baiktjcarb@aol.com on

First off Happy New Year to you Don. Thanks for answering my question a week or so ago in your Daily Video regarding shoulder alignment--there are never enough reminders about the Big A. Your new UAV is also very good.

jim-paula@att.net's picture

Submitted by jim-paula@att.net on

Surge, You have answered both of my questions in daily videos. Thank you very much, the info. is very helpful. Happy subscriber. Jim Salvarakis

donalda95023@hotmail.com's picture

Submitted by donalda95023@ho... on

I use to have a lot of trouble with Don's requirement that we are suppose to lift our clubsto a vertical position; even though in his videos Don is laided off to about 11 o'clock. What I have learned is that the shorter the club, the more I lift the club in a vertical position. My longer clubs become more laid off because I am standing taller so they are closer and closer to being laid off at the top of my back-swing to 11 o'clock (from a side on view).I work on not turing to much and keeping my arm from the shoulder to the elbow from not going any farther back then being over the toe-line at the top of my back swing and I don't worry anymore that my longer clubs are not vertical at the top.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Donald,
Interesting comments. I have just had a swing session in the sun on the golf mat. Using the shadow cast by the sun, and the glass doors to the deck as a mirror, I was surprised at how much 'overswing' I had developed, including from the SW upwards!!! The difference when I swung what I thought was a half swing, was noticeably better,ie, 'burning the grass' and much more control. A further tweak towards the end of the session, was gripping up a little more just prior to making the swings. No doubt in my mind that gripping the club too lightly and I lose control of the clubhead. Tomorrow on the course will tell the tale.
Good Luck on your journey to being the best we Surgites can be. DH in hot and sunny NZ [seems the wind left here for Kapalua ; - ]

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I figure I have looked at Don's swings as much as anybody.

I've looked at them in super slow motion and frame by frame and looked at them with every line imaginable drawn on the screen to see where the club is in every frame.

I have NEVER seen Don laid off to 11 o'clock at the top of a swing. Not ever even close. When he is not 12 o'clock vertical he is past vertical between 12 o'clock and 12:15.

P.S. Just in case you don't know: "Vertical" is as viewed from down the line from behind the golfer looking down the parallel left line (toe line extended). It has nothing to do with a face on view. From a face on view the club will usually go past vertical to 1 or 2 o'clock.

MikefromKy's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy on

Those darn clocks. IMO I thinks people get confused with these clocks. I have not seen Don be laid off at the top either. But right before the top of the BUS the club looks to be from down the line slightly laid off for Don, DJ and Mike from Ky by the time it gets all the way to the top it is vertical to 12 or slightly past.
I hope I articulated that correctly.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

Funny thing is that I am usually less laid off at half to three quarters back than any of the big three that you mentioned. But more laid off than any of ya'll at the top. Part of it is that when I stop my BUS shorter than ya'll do it doesn't have time to push back to vertical at the top.

MikefromKy's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy on

You mean the big 2-1/2. Vertical is easy but my problem becomes getting every club in the bag to 3:00 from face on at that point it becomes a work of miracle moves to get back to square face at impact to much timing involved. Don said when I do that I have a three piece down or FUS.
I have not touched a club in 2 months by design plus the weather has been pretty cold. I hope to get back at it next weekend we are going to have a heat wave in the mid forties.
The only thing I am going to do is make 3/4 swings at half speed or less until it becomes automatic to stop at 3/4 even if it takes until the end of March.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

We got out and played today. First time in a few weeks. It was fairly nice when we started but by the end of the round the wind had picked up and it was pretty cold.

I had very little chipping ability (no surprise since I haven't played much) and only hit my driver so,so, but hit all other full shots very well. I did 3 putt when I had an eagle putt but I'm blaming it on the deer rifle that shot nearby just as I was starting my putting stroke. I really don't know if the rifle is what caused the bad putt but that's my story and I'm sticking to it anyway. LOL

SimplyGolf's picture

Submitted by SimplyGolf on

I would go with that.

Much more noble than a squawking blue jay or indigestion....

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

Rather like the three-putt I had on a par 3 the one day when a ball landed on the green in the middle of my stroke, from one of the nearby par 4 tees.

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I didn't mean to....Hooked it...Wrong GIR...Again!

SimplyGolf's picture

Submitted by SimplyGolf on

That clarification of "vertical" comes each time a piece like this is done. Thx Smith.

I still like the words "upright", "lifted" or maybe "elevated" for this swing.
(But it's Don's swing, and not mine-he can describe it however he wants. LOL.)

Being the literalist and builder that I am, I initially tried to BUS the club into "plumb" position, i.e. vertical. That did not go so well & I felt the whole PPGS thing was QUITE fringe, until some patient Nation people hammered it out and walked through it with me. Thanks Nation, especially Steve Smith, Kevin M, and Doc.

But still, with that said, words matter and the words "keep it vertical" are going to create questions. True, and it's evidenced by the hundreds of honest or sometimes cynical questions posted on this site. A core distinction of this swing is it's verticality, I know, and apparently that requires constant clarification.

So to all I say....avoid the SBG and keep it up (or even vertical)

ckb.reh@gmail.com's picture

Submitted by ckb.reh@gmail.com on

Good comment, agree 100%. Don is innovative, has designed a great swing, and is helping lots and lots of us play much better golf. But Don using concise, unambiguous language in his videos ... hmmm, not so much. =)

I've watched the video several times but still don't know the answer to the question that was asked. lol I DO see the plane he describes, but see NO part of him or his club staying on it for more than a split second or two! =)

Really, I think many of the questions come because the swing does not actually have an exact, engineering model that it conforms to. That then means it can't be described entirely in an exact, engineering manner. Of course, some pieces of it can be described that way with precise angles and positions, but many can't. These are pieces that can vary "somewhat" from person-to-person, and even swing-to-swing, and still meet ALL of the necessary and sufficient requirements of the swing "formula."

So I think many of Don's terms and figures of speech are meant to create sound, reproducible swing thoughts and feelings rather than exact, measurable mechanics. Compare Don's and DJ's swings over time or from video-to-video. They show small variations, but with no effect on the results. Thoughts?

Steve Smith's picture

Submitted by Steve Smith on

I'm with you on "planes".

Planes fly up in the sky. There are none in a golf swing, and especially this one except in it's purist form where if there's a "plane" it's the vertical "plane" from the toes up that the left arm swings up and down on behind the ball and the right arm goes up on after impact to the finish.

You take the left arm (and club) to the toe line and up, and you let the left arm fall toward the toe line to start the FUS for as far as your skill level will let you.

In my case that's probably less than a foot on average. In DJ's case his left arm never leaves that vertical "plane" on the toe line all the way to impact.

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard on

Regarding not having an exact engineering model to refer to and/or an exact description has to do with everyone being built a bit differently and using up to 14 different clubs. Don certainly has the bio-mechanical set up and swing nailed to a tee. The best words I have seen is he has his swing "trapped."

To get the engineering model use the ferris wheel image. Add to it a properly soled golf club. There will be and angled formed when looking down the line.

The top end of the grip or butt end will ideally swing up vertically in both the BUS and FUS. The kicker is that the toe of the club needs to rotate so it is stays vertical throughout the swing.

The ferris wheel analogy breaks down when the bio-mechanics of the body are added. The body can come close to creating the ferris wheel with the butt end of the club. Due to the tilt of the body in the MSP and the small amount of fore arm roll through the mitt the club head want to continue that into the SBG. The lift up the tree and the strong back hand resisting the momentum to keep rotating the arms past the toe up when done properly can come close to duplicating the ferris wheel motion.

The maximum inclined plane, from the ball through the base of the neck when seen down the line refers to the angle that the forward arm should be at the end of the BUS. This comes about from the forward shoulder rotating around the spine angle which causes the shoulder to move closer to the aiming line at the top of the BUS. The forward arm needs to be on the maximum inclined plane in order to have the club on the ferris wheel just before the bump rings the bell and is delivered into the ball on-on-on square and solid.

This merging of the engineering model of the ferris wheel with the bio-mechanics works really good for me. The only problematic part is to start the rotation with the body and the fore arm rotation to toe up through the mitt a split second first before lifting up the tree. My achilles heel is to lift first.

Dave Everitt's picture

Submitted by Dave Everitt on

Hi shortgamewizard,

I have a very easy to use trigger for the BUS that totally eliminates any tendency to lift first. Before starting the BUS I visualize the back hip as a level disc/lazy susan that will be the engine that starts the club moving. The stable bow legged address postion with level hips prevents overturning. The trick is to focus on this large body part throughout the BUS and letting the rest of the body do its job of lifting the club to the vertical postion. Spot focusing on the rear hip makes it relatively easy to time/sequence the lifting of the arms without jerking the club back and heading for the sacred burial ground or conversely lifting the club too soon.

ianjenko@yahoo.co.uk's picture

Submitted by ianjenko@yahoo.co.uk on

What a timely video from Don on the vertical awing.

I have been trying to master the PPGS swing for some time but with limited success. I was convinced that I was swinging on the correct plane but had been very frustrated with the results. As a last resort I purchased a SwingTech trainer from Surge's shop to be delivered to a family address in California where I was to spend Christmas. I have now returned to the UK and have fixed it in place.

Well, to my amazement, it has proved that I was way off from vertical. I had been convinced that I was not getting into the SGB but boy, was I wrong. Using the SwingTech has forced me to feel the correct swing and it is really helpful to be able to swing in slow motion and to check all the points, from catcher's mitt to T finish, which Don teaches.

All I have to do now is to take the same swing to the course!

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

On a different subject, I was checking the PGA Tour website to see if they had the list for next week's Sony Open posted yet, and I see DJ's name in the field. Anybody know if this is correct? I certainly hope so. Seeing DJ win in Hawaii would make this year just that much brighter (sorry, guys, but it doesn't top my upcoming wedding ;-) ).

MikefromKy's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy on

I have not seen it but would think that he would get in.I think there is a EURO event next weekend were some are going. Hopefully they will have better weather than they are having at the TOC this weekend.

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Hope DJ is in next week. that would be a good opportunity for him.

And congratulations Robert. I know you spoke of her as your fiance'e but that term is often used now as meaning girl friend/significant other and not always an imminent marriage. Well good for you pal. Wish you the best. Hope she likes golf. Cindy didn't know if she liked golf but after several years together she got into it and now she is often the one to say, "where are we playing this week?"
I see the Orthopedic Doctor on Wednesday to go over my MRI for my right shoulder and get a better idea about possible treatment and or if surgery might be coming. Been looking at typical recovery schedules and it looks like about 3-5 months of unable to golf and work depending on lots of variables.
We'll know soon enough I guess.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Robert,
I hope that you are right about DJ too. On the subject of Robert F's impending nuptuals. Old saying: " I am glad he is getting married, why the hell should he be happy?" hahaha. On a more serious note. We wish Robert Fleck all the luck and Happiness in the world. May your 'caddy' be as invaluable as mine, in all things ; - )
Robert and Cindy, togetherness is an oft misquoted state. With the right one, life is much simpler. That mine "LOVES" me playing golf, well come on chaps, what could beat that?
Wind has played a return trip from Kapalua to here, but not as strong. So tomorrow is lookiing good.
A question for you [and other Surgites], How often do you sharpen the grooves on your irons? What is the recommended period? Seeing I am trialling two different clubs against their opposition tomorrow, thought it would be a sensible thing to sharpen the grooves on them. Almost embarrassed to say, that one set, to my perfect knowledge has never been sharpened in the nigh on 20years they have been in my possession : - [ Boy did they need doing!!! A magnifying glass showed a considerable number of nicks etc and some grooves actually looked round at the edges : - [
It will be interesting to see any difference on the morrow. We'll see.
On the subject of your Wednesday visit to the Orthopod over the MRI scan. You will be in our thoughts and prayers for a favourable result. DH and Caddy in windy again Wellington NZ

MikefromKy's picture

Submitted by MikefromKy on

Would that make them illegal ?
I guess it would not matter if you do not play tournaments.

When you do that it widens them and makes them deeper.

Seems like I heard DOC talk about that once.

Edit

Robert Meade's picture

Submitted by Robert Meade on

Actually sharpening our grooves. Hmmmnnnnn....................... Mike makes a good point as far as altering our grooves. I'll not get into that without further research but as far as keeping our grooves clean and in good shape for play. I actually do that nearly every time I play. If you have a good and handy brush like the Frooger, it's a snap. Cindy and I have ones similar to this.

http://www.froggergolf.com/frogger-brushpro/
Actually we have a version of it we bought at Golf Gallaxy. It has a nifty cleaning/sharpening tool. not meant to alter the depth or width but to clean and assist the edges staying , well, sharp.

Now an actual groove sharpenre is found on e bay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLF-GROOVE-SHARPENER-4-titleist-wedges-prov1-x-balls-/300517442529#vi-content

And then there is this one and evidently it is legal and sharp. Now I don't have one of these but may invest in this one some day.
note:
http://golfgroovesharpener.com/

Guess for those that play in tournaments you may want to double check its legitimacy. If that's not the case for you and you simply want to improve the current quality of your clubs and they have not been "groovy" for 20 years I say go for it DH

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Robert,
My knee came out in sympathy with your shoulder. No golf today! Common-sense triumphed over eagerness to get out and have a hit : - ( Better a couple of days than a couple of months methinks.
On grooves? The sharpener I had my daughter buy me in UK is "guaranteed" to sharpen the grooves only to the prescribed depths as is allowed. [will check your groove sharpener after pecking this out ; - ]. I noted on the older clubs, lots of nicks and dings from other clubs in the days before I invested in iron covers : - ( Some of the grooves by feel alone were well overdue in being 'cleared out'. I have a small wire brush too, courtesy of another daughter and will use it more often in future too.
Have a great day and keep on grooving as I will only be grooving in my Ti-ming and Tem-po if anything, boohoo! boohoo! hahaha. DH

Robert Fleck's picture

Submitted by Robert Fleck on

I actually keep a medium and a small wire pipe brush on my bag for cleaning my grooves between shots. Nothing escapes those. I am careful not to use too much pressure, as I don't want them actually digging out any of the face of my clubs. ;-) They were in a pile of old plumbing supplies in the garage of this house when I moved in.

Thanks for the congratulations. I do look forward to many happy years, even if I never manage to convince her to like golf.

Dragonhead's picture

Submitted by Dragonhead on

Robert,
The second groover link is the very one I have : - ]
ie,
http://golfgroovesharpener.com/ So a sigh of relief from me. So while I am golf deprived I will do the rest of the irons.
Yeeha! A good investment at a reasonable price. So not all bad news hahaha!
DH in sun just peeked out from behind the clouds in NZ

shortgamewizard's picture

Submitted by shortgamewizard on

The ferris wheel image I used to refer to the end of the grip being directly under the base of the neck. This means the arc it travels on will be vertical and would only change if it was farther away from the aim line or nearer to it.

The maximum inclined plane can change slightly for every club. It is the line from the ball through the base of the neck when seen on the down the line view. Thus as the clubs get longer the angle gets slightly flatter. The longer clubs also can generate more energy that wants to make the club head go inside too far. The back hand has to work harder to make the club lighter when swinging up past the mitt on the BUS.

steffl11's picture

Submitted by steffl11 on

I am new to this swing. What do you mean you swing to the toe line and then up?

Terry Medley's picture

Submitted by Terry Medley on

The toe line is the actual line, parallel to your aim/ball line on which your toes are setting. Swinging to the toe line means, we have a back swing and forward swing which turns only until the upper arm, from shoulder to elbow, covers this toe line and is on the same line parallel above it. From that point, it is all straight up lift to the top of each. Here is an additional video which may further clarify it. Good luck and welcome to the PPGS site.

http://swingsurgeon.com/DailyVideos/tabid/107/entryid/1004/Surge-Swing-In-Slow-Motion.aspx#comment-368940928

ejb1951@comcast.net's picture

Submitted by ejb1951@comcast.net on

Surge, Could you comment on the effect of the PPGS when in the rough? I think this as well as an efficient way to swing the golf club lends itself to the best approach to the ball when in the rough. Could you elaborate if you agree? Ed Bullano

kubalajp's picture

Submitted by kubalajp on

Do you still try to swing vertical on both side of the ball with wedge shots from 20 to 70 yards that are less than full swings? How do you control the distance?