We recently got a question in from a student who wanted to learn more about the meaning of lie angle and the overall importance of it. He asked a local pro if he could give some tips, but the pro told him that he first needed to change his swing to a flatter plane with more rotation before he could help. Well, needless to say, the student had no interest of turning his back on the PPGS. But, he still needed some answers.
So, today I called on Doc Griffin to give everyone the straight facts about lie angle. It will most likely goes against what you've heard in the past.
This is actually a really good question because it deals with a big misconception about lie angle in the game of golf. Doc asks for you all to trust him about this subject matter because he's sure that you've heard quite the opposite for years.
Whatever the club looks like when you address the ball has nothing to do with what the proper lie angle should be. Surprised? You shouldn't be! Whether it's sitting heel up, toe up, or perfectly flat, you've got to let go of the idea that the club has to be in a particular position when you address the ball. It has nothing to do with what happens when you swing the golf club.
The elements of the swing and the club that directly effect lie angle are clubhead weight, the force with which you swing and release the club, and the resistance of the shaft in the hosel to resist the force of the club being swung, which is called "toe down" effect.
If you're getting a lot of "toe down" effect, it means the lie angle needs to be adjusted more upright. It has nothing to do with the swing plane or path. Weight, force, and resistance of shaft at the tip are what matter. Lie angle is a key to playing proper golf, so get it checked, please! It will most definitely help you in your golf game and most assuredly your mental game as well!
Keep it vertical!
The Surge
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Comments
Nice
Nice video, Doc. So simple that it amazes me people keep getting confused about this stuff. I think you should change the title to "The Truth About Lies." ;-)
Succinct
Thanks Doc for explaing quickly. Did you notice you were speaking a little faster today? ha ha. Hey, no disrespect and I look forward to your vids but Don has been getting a little long lately, being well over the ten minute mark. A daily around 7, 8 minutes is perfect. Just an observation and friendly critique. Thanks guys for all you do.
Greg C
Hi there
gkey, you haven't posted for a while. Too bad you couldn't use your time to share something helpful with us about golf. If you had, others on this site might have gone to your site and taken an interest. Since you are a critic rather than a contributor you may not finding many who concur aside from the other rare chimers and trollers. Too bad as you are likely a good guy and have some kind and generous thoughts to share.
Hi Robert
Hey, your right Robert, I'm not contributing anything this time and I re-iterate that I'm not trying to disrespect. All I'm saying is that sometimes life makes it's demands. When I get home from working, I check my mail and genuinely look forward to Surge's dailies but with a brand new daughter, I find it hard to sit for more then a few minutes. If I see it is eleven or twelve minutes long, I save it hoping to watch it later. Unfortunately I find myself missing them and I now have a backlog that i'm disappointed not to have seen. I do own most of Don's videos, it's not like I'm trolling and I'm a vocal supporter in my group and a Surgite, all the way. That's all, no disrespect intended, please. Regards,
Greg
gkey
Could not agree more - my attention span starts to fade when things get redundant. I've been here since PPGS and have always felt the shorter and pithier videos are more effective. I don't see a need to read the emails coming in - just state the point, Don, and get to your teaching. I still watch other video lessons which can be instructive in areas such as putting, chipping, conditioning and mental game. At 2-5 minutes I feel they are able to make effective points as well as DT does in 10-12. I love the Surge Swing and it has saved my 65 year old back and allowed me to continue enjoying a game I fell in love with over 50 years ago but when it comes to the dailies my recommendation is to get to the point and don't beat a dead horse. Keepin' it vertical.
Video length
I strongly disagree, that we have any right, to place any demands, of any kind, on the daily videos. These videos are absolutely FREE. We can watch them at any time convenient to our schedule, or leisure. We can even watch them over and over again, if desired. We can watch them all at once or in stages, IF our time is really that limited. We can save and store them if desired on our phones and tablets. We can share them with others if desired.
I don't know how folks that bitch about the length, are able to read a book, or watch a movie, that is longer than a couple minutes. They certainly would be unable to listen to a lecture or sermon of any kind. I don't even think they could casually converse with another for more than a couple minutes without becoming bored. How do you get through life having to shorten every communication of any kind to 5 minute spans.
I, for one, thank Surge very much for his daily gifts to me/us. Since his gift is free, I in like kind give him the freedom to present them in any method, manner, length, or means he so desires. I am just thankful he is kind enough to do so, IN SPITE OF THE OCCASIONAL WHINER.
Thank you Surge and keep doing it your way.
Terry
It's very rude to yell in your post. Constructive criticism is different than whining. Opinions are like a**holes - everybody's got one - even you.
Rude A-Hole
Well Ray. You got me. I am definitely a rude a-hole with chronic whiners. Especially those who whine about absolutely free stuff. I could see if you were paying for it, but not when it's free.
Now, take just one moment and think. If my opinion about your comment upsets you that much. How in the world do you think Surge feels about opinionated rude comments as to his free videos. You really think your comments make him feel better about his free efforts. Think about it truthfully and take yourself out of the equation. Surge takes an awful lot of flack from folks like you, when he is just trying to do his best, and again, it's all FREE.
So yes, I wear the badge of rude a-hole proudly.
BS Overload
If someone doesn't have a few minutes of time the last thing they should do is attempt to play golf.
The public track record for understanding the short quick answer to an often ambiguous question is not very good...To say the least.
Terry
I have no clue why you would call me a chronic anything since this is my first post going back years. Just chill out and take a suggestion for what it's worth - maybe not much to you but more so for someone else. I appreciate all Don does for us and don't believe his skin is so thin that his feelings are going to be hurt by my opinion - c'mon, man up! I just think Don's points could be made more succinctly, that's all.
video lenght
Terry. You said it better than I could have. You have a more eloquent speech than I. I am just a SC redneck and I would have used different words to express myself about the lenght of the videos. I don't care if they end being a half hr or more I will take the time to watch it in its entirety. Thank you.
I have known Don Trahan for over 15 years. We speak on the phone at least every two weeks. Between Brady Owens, Tom Jans and myself we keep Don posted on whats happens on the Blog. Don has a passion for teaching golf and sometimes he cannot condense what he wants to say in just a few minutes. So let him say it, listen to it and practice what he is saying. I have for 15 years. I respect him and love him to death.
Harold from SC
HAROLD
Thanks, I feel the same way. It's Don's videos and he has every right to make them as he see's fit. He offers them to us for free. If someone doesn't like them, they don't have to listen, but they should at least allow Don to do them in his own manner, not theirs. I am just amazed at the small minded and rude folks who have the nerve to be so critical about a free gift being offered to them. When I reply to them, they count me among the critical and rude, yet fail to see it is only in response to their precedent rudeness. Rude begets rude and critical begets critical. However, I would rather be rude for the sake of another than for my own selfish interests.
Let Surge know that the majority of us have no problems at all with the videos. As you say, the longer he speaks, the more I learn.
Family
Terry, you did well speaking up. Hopefully not lost in all the back and forth today was the fact that Lynn Griffin did a fine job in covering an often over looked subject. Like I said originally to Greg C., it was too bad he didn't use his rare comment as an opportunity to share something helpful.
On this site we aren't always in agreement about the subject matter and we engage in some sharp discussions but we never try to tell the teacher how to teach.
Like you and most of the Surge Nation actually enjoy the southern drawl of Doc and the New England flavor of Don's accent that has been altered a bit from years of South Carolina. Especially after 4 years of learning and growing not only as golfers but as a family of world wide friends we are just fine with all Don, Lynn and all the other contributors give. I hope they never change.
BTW, we haven't heard from Dragon Head for a couple of weeks now. I hope he's alright. If anyone has his personal e mail, could you please check on him and let us know how he is. I've been missing his nearly daily comments.
Amen my friend
Liston, practice and respect and yes love Surge. Right on Harold.
And let's hope he never condenses a damn thing. He says it all just fine thanks. I wish all the dailies were longer than 10 minutes!
video lenght
Dup
Critique
Oh oh, gkey, watch out, you're going to get it!!!
Hi Adel
You saw that one coming, eh? Ha ha. I'm sure Don and Doc and appreciate all feedback when it's presented with respect. And like Ray said, I'm sure they aren't thinned skin. Warm regards,
Greg
Spot on it!!!
Doc Griffin,
Thank you very much for again emphasizing an absolutely vital point that is one of the cheapest and most over looked aspects of properly fit clubs. Any of you who have been faithfully following this blog for even just this past year have seen the video that I have posted on the importance of lie angle. However I will again post it here. Not so ironically the fitter in the video below says much the same thing and that most golfers are playing with irons that are too flat and they would be far better off to have them bent by 4-6 degrees more upright. Other wise we are bound to continue blaming our swing for those shots that are fading right of our target( or left if they're too flat). This also explains why you have several other clubs in your bag that end up at or left of the flag. Those sticks are more upright or correct for you. Though I am not yet a certified fitter you know what my most valuable piece of equipment is in my corner of the garage? Yes, my loft and lie machine. Now maybe you have no interest in buying and using a machine like this but there is a fitter near you that can do this for only a few bucks per club. They are designed to adjust both lie and loft and both are off on almost nearly all new sets of irons and certainly on ALL used set of clubs including yours reader (unless you're the rare bird who checks and has his or her lies adjusted periodically). I have met numerous golfers who have NEVER had their lofts and lies corrected. And their clubs are 5, 10, 20 maybe 30 years old. Never adjusted and you can't figure out why you hit that one iron well and some others poorly?
Again, thank you Lynn for this most over looked fix that all golfers could and should have done at least every two seasons. Some times these are minor tweeks that can mean hitting it by the stick or 15 yards off. Hmmmnnn..... important?
Watch this one again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zx
These gents say even every season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA
Why does Doc keep reinforcing the need to get our clubs fit properly, including the lie angle?
Here's a really quality way to spend nine minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA
We, of course especially recommend that you see a PPGS fitter if you can. At the very very least, please have your dynamic lies tested and fit along with your lofts for correct gaping by any qualified local fitter.
Please get the point
In all our back in forth I wanted to emphasis that for those who have never (or at least not for several seasons) had their lies (and lofts) checked and readjusted please get it done. As Gary Player might say, "For the love of golf!"
I am absolutely convinced it has made a huge difference in my consistency, especially with the scoring irons (7i-58*wedge). One or two degrees off can mean 15 yards off the pin. Any decent local fitter can check and adjust your clubs.
If you're still not convinced, please watch the 3 attached videos I presented in my comment above. Remember, the better your game becomes, the more important lies become. Likewise with our lofts. As we get our distances more dialed in we want to have our gaps between each club (especially our irons) exactly as we choose (normally 4* depending...). When our tools clubs are right we can focus on the game with more confidence.
As Doc says, "Better golf is only a fit away". So before you bother spending $3-500.00 on that new driver, or blame your irons for that next missed green, give your current sticks the love they need. They may just pay you back handsomely. And who doesn't want to be more handsome?
The Point
Robert
Just want to be sure I understand your point. If I have my lies and lofts checked, then, I too can look like TEF? ;0))
Time and clubs
Absolutely, RM. As you no doubt remember when we checked my clubs (which hadn't been adjusted for lie and loft for 20+ years), over time clubs will bend with use, and as you're likely using different clubs more often than others, those clubs will tend to change more. You can end up like I did. My 7 iron had always been a favorite club when I was younger, but last year it was really letting me down. It was barely going any further than my 8 and most of the time it was out to the right. Checking the loft and lie showed exactly why that was, it had over time gone a couple degrees flat and the loft had bent back to very close to my 8 iron.
Clubs
RF, I hope you are getting out and giving yours some time on the links.
Keep 'em down the middle pal.
No swings
Sadly, haven't been out with the sticks since the move. On the days when the weather has been glorious, Pam and I have been busy doing planting and yard work. Soon I'll find myself the time and a good place to play, though. I know I'm surrounded by golf courses here, same as it was in Las Vegas. I need to find a good practice facility first, I think.
CLUB Lie Angle
Sorry Doc, your suggestions on lie angle went right over the head olf most
all of us. Try it again with an actual club in yuour hand or a blackboard illustration, please not just your hand ! Thanks in advance. John
Lie Angle
John
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm neither a math whiz nor an engineer, but had no problem understanding Doc's explanation of lie angle.
The message
There were really only four messages and they aren't that complicated.
1. The toe of the club will droop down during the swing, which makes the lie angle at address a moot point. How much it droops depends on the club, shaft, and how fast you swing it.
2. If the toe is lower than the heel at impact the shot is more likely to go right or slice (for a right handed golfer).
3. If the heel is lower than the toe at impact the shot is more likely to go left or hook (for a right handed golfer).
4. The best way to make sure you are giving yourself the best chance to hit the ball straight, and where you are aiming, is to get your lie angles checked and set to fit your swing.
That's it!!!
I would add that I doubt seriously if there's a single person reading this blog doesn't have their hands higher at impact than they did at address, which also makes the toe lower at impact than it was at address.
Measuring of club length
Hi Doc,
Don spokeabout club length in a rececent daily. I Know that clubs are measure wrist to floor, however I am confused about the position of the arms when the measurement is taken. Are we standing straight with arms to the sides, or are we standing in the normal address position with arms hanging down. Can you solve my confusion.
Regards
Lance Clarke
Australia
Club Length
Lance: The WTF is taken as you are standing straight up, arms at your side, in walking shoes. Take the WTF of your foreward playing hand/wrist (left hand for a righty). Also, you can just type in "WTF" or "wrist to floor" in the search box and enjoy the results. R2
The right search bar
Just make sure to use the site search bar. WTF has an entirely different meaning with a google search. LOL
Search bar
LOL Steve! Thanks for the clarification. It should be a no-brainer but better safe than sorry. r2
The truth about lies (thanks RF)
Doc: Outstanding video - simple to understand, direct, very informative and extremely helpful! I really appreciate you clearing up the all the misconceptions floating around out there in the golf world. And I promise I will have my lies checked again before this season starts up here in Utah. Just gotta remember 1- weight of clubhead 2- force of swing and 3- shaft tip resistance (toe-down). By the way, I've learned from past years the lie angle REALLY DOES change as the club is used. Sometimes it's the indian, sometimes it's the arrow! R2
R2
Roy, really appreciated your positive comment. You clearly stated and reiterated the forces that change the lie angle during the swing as did Steve. I would add one more factor and that is that the shaft also bends (flexes) forward too thru impact effecting loft and lie.
Commendable that you will have your lies checked before your coming golf season. To me that was the key point of Docs message. If even 2 or 3more Surgites are now motivated to get both their lofts and lies checked and adjusted.by aa professional then it will accomplish the goal.
Hope you're well. The snow will melt in Salt Lake and golf will happen:)
RM
Lie angle adjustment
Thanks RM. Such a simple and cheap thing to have a club fitter do, and it really can make a difference in how well we strike the ball. Before I joined this site, I'd played golf for a lot of years and never even knew or thought about club lie angle. II've learned more about golf in the three years i've followed the Surge than in the other 45 years i've been playing. Take care, r2
When the student is ready
There is an ancient saying that always holds true,
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear".
We hear what we are ready to hear.
http://www.bigfatpurse.com/2009/03/buddha-when-the-student-is-ready-the-teacher-will-appear/
The subject of better fit clubs and the importance of loft and lie needing adjusted are one of those many concepts offered here on Swing Surgeon.com. But I'm sure many stopped by and were not ready to learn the lesson yet. I, like you had no clue about lie angles before Surge and the subject of fitting our clubs came into focus as a simple, relatively cheap fundamental that is important for any golfer at any level. Lofts? As Robert Fleck mentions above, when we checked his clubs he was blown away by how far off his gaps were. Some were within 1 degree of having identical lofts and others were 5-7 degrees apart from one club to the next.
R2, you and I have some similarities in our golf journey. We played and did our best playing golf for 40+ years. We knew what we knew and listen to various teachers and tried differing methods even taking lessons. It wasn't until we came across Don Trahan that everything came together and made sense. Can we learn from other golfers and other teachers? Absolutely. But I feel armed with important golf knowledge now combined with doing my best to use it. When I hear other suggestions and ideas from other instructors it either helps reinforce the things I'm working on or I can quickly reject them as useless for me. I trust what I an learning here andI don't feel the need to 'try' everything that comes by any more.
For me, the main factor in being able to accept and benefit fully from what Don and this site gives us is that he is a genuinely good man. R2, you met Surge too. I have met him twice and believe me when I tell you, just like Harold reminds us on many occasions, Don Trahan is a good family man and a conservative Patriotic American. He has our best interests at heart. I think many (or most ) of us look at any web site that also sell stuff and are inherently suspicious of their motives. This site draws good people to it because the owner and teacher is good and sincerely wants to help us.
"I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care." He cares, a lot.
Now with the X amount of golfing time I have left on this rock I can simply "go play".
I know where to turn for any course corrections I need.
When the student is ready
RM: You are spot-on!! Great rerference and I really appreciate your wisdom. Thanks for all you do to help us out! Hope you get to enjoy some sun this week and have fun playing this great game! Hit 'em straight! R2
We could use a club fitting
We could use a club fitting session here in the New Jersey area.
Otherwise, it will need to wait till I can get down to South Carolina.
fitting in nj
i'll look into the feasibility of coming to nj
lie angle
Doc, I had a set of clubs made by a fitter in the DFW area.
They were very expensive but what I think I needed.
Unfortunately the fitter just sold me the clubs as they were the most expensive they carried.
They did set the lie on a lie board to 1 degree upright & told me they were afraid to set them any more upright.
They don't seem to dig either the toe or heal which I presume means they are right for me.
The clubs are a D1 swing weight & I am having trouble with my timing because I was used to a heavier weight & that helped me hold my hands back during the downswing.
They told me that was as heavy as they could build them & I have lived with it ever since.
They are MIura 501, 4-5-6, & blades for the 7 thru lob wedge.
I hit the gap wedge further than the PW which show me the weight does make a difference as it is heavier.
Also they builta WIshon 11degree driver & 16 degree fariway wood with tour spec shafts.
The irons have Oban graphite shafts.
Need help with the weight as I am tired of trying to modify my swing for the clubs.
I am 63 years old & play 3 to 4 times a week.
Thanks,
louis
lie angle
You can use lead tape to bring up the weight My concern is that you were told that the clubs could only be built to a D1 and only bent to 1* up safely. That's just not accurate. Miuras are forged and can be bent all over the place and you can get sw to what you need by several means. May I ask who did the work? I may can suggest a place to help you.
350-400cc Driver heads
Hi Doc.
been using your swing for about 2 years with great results. love the swing love your vidios which are a great help.
In England (UK) cannot find a Fitter who can fit a
350-400cc Driver Head. They seem to think I am mad to want to do such a thing. I know your views on this subject and would like to experiment.
Could you therefore supply me with a manufacturer/supplyer name and or a contact email address so that I could purchase a head. also what design quality are they. ie are they an 8 year old design because all the latest design is going into the 460cc heads.
Best regards
Tom. ( 72 years old - 78/80 mph speed )
Doc is planning a trip to the UK in May
I know that Doc has already responded to you by email but i want all of our UK members to know that Doc is trying to work out the details of a trip to the UK (and perhaps Ireland) sometime in May.
Details wil be mailed to all in Europe once we have them.
Tom Jans
Lie Angle
Thank you Doc for an excellent video. I began using the PPGS 18+ months ago by watching the videos, buying a few CDs and actually went to the driving range to practice and used my newly purchased direction sticks to aid in alignment. What I noticed was my divots were shallow (good) and slightly pointed to the left (also good) but that the toe was deeper than the heel and I could feel the club twisting in my hand. The Experiment: I bought a few clubs off eBay, they were demo 6 & 7 irons, relatively cheap and they all had a 2º upright lie angle. I bought regular flex and stiff flex as they were labeled. This resulted in more level, uniform shallow divots and with correct contact felt sweet and flew straight. So, I purchased a cheapo club head clamp, bending bar and using a protractor measured-bent-remeasured-bent etc until my old MP30's were 2º upright. I'm sure they aren't perfect but I have the confidence that when properly struck, these irons will perform like they should - work continues with the idiot on the end of the shaft. Thanks Surge & Doc & Dave and all the contribute to these videos. I play once a week and shoot in the low-to-mid 80's, before PPGS 90's. I get a lot of static for using my 12º, small head driver (Luddite style, home-built like all my clubs) but I can nut that old boy with the PPGS and pretty much keep up with the boys in their 40's with their tour-style peach baskets...I'm 62. They can spin and rotate all they want - I like what DJ said, if you want it to go further, swing your hands faster - that way. I'm saving my money and hope to attend a one-day school in North Atlanta someday soon. Thank you all very much.
High ball
Those greens today at Riviera are just like the greens where I started playing golf (hard as a rock).
Any ball that doesn't have a high trajectory has no chance to stop on the green, and the grass short of the green gives no bounce at all, so bouncing it up isn't a good option.
I took a friend to that course that was used to shooting in the 70s at the country club and he kept hitting green after green and watching them bounce off like a ping pong ball. He probably broke the world record that day for total distance of club throws and curse words as he shot his 103.
I'm quite certain that more
I'm quite certain that more than a few pros will be having high balls at the 19th hole today. ;-)
High Balls
Steve, Nice to know that even the good guys have problems. Was ready to slash my wrists for being 5 over H/C yesterday, but think I'll leave it for a few more weeks after reading your comment, lol.
Expectations
I think all of us have too many high expectations sometimes. There's a fine line between confidence and ridiculous expectations.
It's a good reality check to see that better players can mess up too.
I have to remind myself every time I miss our small island green par 4 that the pros wouldn't always hit that green either (especially if it's windy). I think that's why my favorite hole to watch on TV is the short island green par 3 in Florida where plenty of them hit it in the water.
Lie angle & toe droop.
First off,another nice video, Doc! Hopefully this one can clear up many of the misconceptions the fine folks that call this blog their away from the course home home concerning lie angle,be it static or kinetic or whatever term that it happens to be.That terminology always seems to be over this country-boys head.
This brought remembrance to me as to when I was in your cozy,yet warm, city going through my fitting process year before last.I was, as you so elequently put it in on the blog, "as nervous as a new bride." but managed to hit enough decent shots to get the data you needed for my set build.
I recall that one demo club you had me hit was so lite in the shaft tip with the corresponding lie that you told me on the video and comp analysis that it showed the toe fanning (drooping) to where the club face was nearly vertical (toe down) coming into the ball.
Basically, I rambled on about all that to say this.Folks, nothing beats a proper fitting from a certified professional fitter. They understand the dynamics of the swing as it relates to the individual swing & club "like none other" Hated to use that Jim Nantz motif since I'm miffed at today's coverage since I don't get the golf channel but it seemed appropriate.
Happy golfing.
Coverage
When they switched to The Golf Channel at the end I figured people that didn't get that channel would be upset.
Absolutely, Steve! I mean and
Absolutely, Steve! I mean and I like I posted to CBS Sports via their facebook page, not everyone in other time zones than PST get or are able to get GC.
They always have over-run coverage on the NCAA basketball game leading into the golf coverage, yet they can't push the prime-time schedule back a few minutes? Like it's going to bother me if my 10:00pm news comes later?
Stupid
They always talk about things to improve the popularity of golf but then do stupid things like that.
I thought going to Golf Central for 30 minutes between coverages was bad enough but to not show the end of the tournament on network TV was the worst thing I've seen since the Heidi game back in the 60s.
I'm just glad I didn't depend on DVR like I usually do with golf tournaments. I would have never known they switched to Golf Channel.
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